Masturbating/porn while in relationships?

[Roy]

I had a long term relationship with a girl once, it was monogamous and there was healthy open communication and understanding about our relationships sex component. We both had really high sex drives but understood we wouldn't always be "on it" at the same times, either because one of us would be busy and didn't want to be distracted, or away from each other for whatever reason. The first half of the relationship was long distance before we moved in together.

We agreed with each other that it was totally ok to have solo sex, and we wouldn't get angry or shame the other person for doing it like a lot of couples do. We basically understood that neither of us was doing it because of lack of attraction or satisfaction with each other, because the sex was amazing and frequent. We just knew we had urges to fill and wouldn't beg the other person to participate if they weren't 100% into it. She especially hated morning sex, while I loved it. So needless to say that led to a lot of lonely mornings for me hahaha.

However an issue arose one day when the topic came up again, I basically told her that I don't just use my imagination when I'm masturbating, I use porn sometimes (AKA images of other women). This upset her quite a bit and she got angry at me for it. Basically accusing me of some minor form of cheating. I found this kind of perplexing, because we were very straight forward about our loyalty to each other. Being ok with each other masturbating while in the relationship, it seemed implied to me that it's OK to fantasize about other people and not be crossing any boundaries of loyalty, because we'd obviously never act on those fantasies. They are just pixels, with zero emotional involvement.

It just seemed very odd to me, like did she expect me to have a jerk off shrine dedicated to her or something when she wasn't in the mood? I never understood it and I don't think the issue was resolved, because to me it seems unhealthy and controlling to expect to police our own or each others minds about the matter, especially after we gave each other that freedom and had clear, healthy boundaries about loyalty.

Anyways has anyone else dealt with this kind of thing in a relationship? How did you deal with it in a good way? I'm looking for other perspectives to help me in future relationships. I want to have brutally open communication, but experiences like this make it seem like it's not possible, because most times you can't dig into things explicitly, being extremely explicit spoils connection with women from my experiences. They say they want it, then when you give it to them they don't like it (usually). On the other hand I don't like hiding or reserving things too much either, it feels incongruent and inauthentic.

 

[puporing]

Sounds like you just didn't find the right match in that regard and overall it depends on how important sharing this is with you. If you're more open minded about something that's pretty important and day to day and not something you would want to just hide/repress forever then you'd want your partner to be about the same with where you're at or it'll most likely not going to pan out. Yes maybe it'll be harder to find a more open minded partner but does the alternative (repression/hiding) appeal to you more than being single? 

[Leo Gura]

Just gotta find a girl who is not so insecure and who understands that porn is to be expected for guys.

Also set the frame early that you watch porn and that this is just business as usual for you. It shouldn't come as a surprise to her.

You shouldn't be brutally explicit with women. You gotta learn how to set certain frames though in implicit ways, so she isn't surprised.

Then again, you should tell her that you jerk off to her too sometimes. This is pretty natural for me. Usually this makes them feel flattered.

One way to set the frame here is to ask her early on what kind of porn she likes, and then naturally she will ask you what kind you like. From this convo it should be implicitly clear to her that you watch porn.

[flowboy]

Hi Roy,

A good friend of mine had this issue with his girlfriend.

She is now his wife and they have a baby, so it's clearly possible to work it out.

She would get upset knowing that he watched porn, and consider it cheating. She would cry or get angry.

At first he would react by hiding it, but one day he decided to be radically honest from that point on.

He told her about the drugs he experimented with, and the porn he watched. All things that greatly upset her.

But he established the frame that this is just what he did, it has nothing to do with her, she has no say over it, and he was not going to feel bad about it or hide it anymore.

They had some fights after that, because it is really a re-establishing of dominance that happened.

But then the rocky period was over and they both settled in.

And still to this day he mentions watching porn when she is there, and she doesn't even flinch.

 

Myself I never had this particular issue with porn, girls I've been with have always been cool with that or even exchanged links to videos with me.

I've had it in other ways though, where I like to do certain things that many girls don't agree with or which makes them insecure.

In recent years I'm learning to be upfront with all the things about me that she might not agree with, in the first couple dates.

It really does pay off when I do it well. And I've gone through enough pain that I am motivated to set it up correctly.

 

My honest opinion is that arguing on a logical level over what 'should' be considered okay for you and the technicalities of it, is a battle that will never end. It can not be solved on this level. Because you're basically negotiating terms with her while she's in the higher power position. It's like asking for a raise in a job you can't afford to leave.

However, you can always re-establish the frame and redefine what things you do that she has no say over and vice versa.

You may have to have a little fight over it, though.

Because if you've let her insecurities and emotional outbursts motivate you to stop watching porn or hide it, then basically she established dominance over you. I'm not saying that she does this on purpose or anything. It's something that happens in relationships and is easy to slip into. Not her fault.

I'm just saying you can re-establish frame if you're willing to go through some uncomfortable fights and put your foot down.

Actually be willing to lose her.

Otherwise, there's no changing this.

It's no fun having to cater to someone's insecurities, but it's equally no fun having to watch and police your boyfriend's porn habits, and being enabled in emotional controlling behavior.

Re-establishing the frame and holding firm on that will actually make her feel more secure with you. You being the dominant one in that. As evidenced by my friend J's story.

Word of warning though, if your dynamic has been based on everything being equal from the start, and you have never been the 'alpha' really (meaning she sets the frame of the relationship, leads and makes the final call on decisions), it's possible that this is the only way she wants to relate with you. And setting your own frame can lead to a breakup. That actually happened to me before.

So it's not without risk. But it can work.

As you can see, it's much easier and less risky to establish the frame that allows for everything you want from the beginning.

 

Addendum: I dislike having to talk about dominance, and being the 'alpha' because it sounds so crass, but sometimes it is a dynamic that can't be ignored. It's not to be construed as you being dominant over her or bossing her around, but rather you having ownership over yourself and being the leader in setting the frame for the relationship, creating the container in which both of you can feel safe.

Edited March 9, 2022 by flowboy

[Hardkill]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Just gotta find a girl who is not so insecure and who understands that porn is to be expected for guys.

Also set the frame early that you watch porn and that this is just business as usual for you. It shouldn't come as a surprise to her.

You shouldn't be brutally explicit with women. You gotta learn how to set certain frames though in implicit ways, so she isn't surprised.

Then again, you should tell her that you jerk off to her too sometimes. This is pretty natural for me. Usually this makes them feel flattered.

One way to set the frame here is to ask her early on what kind of porn she likes, and then naturally she will ask you what kind you like. From this convo it should be implicitly clear to her that you watch porn.

Should a guy talk to a girl about porn before or after he has had sex with her?

Edited March 9, 2022 by Hardkill

[Roy]

6 hours ago, Hardkill said:

Should a guy talk to a girl about porn before or after he has had sex with her?

Probably after my dude. It would be a little weird to bring up, "Hey baby just so you know I beat my dog to your pictures and sometimes pornstars that look like you." Seems like a sure fire way she'll never have sex with you lol.

After you have sex for the first time in a relationship there is a huge weight and pressure lifted off the mans shoulders, where you can open up a lot more and chill out. You don't need to put on as much of a show for her anymore and try so hard. I've noticed this shift in every. single. girl. I've ever been with.

They test and test and test and test you, and then when you finally get to write and finish the exam, you notice you don't have to study so hard anymore.

[Flowerfaeiry]

I have no problem with my man looking at porn. That being said I do think that porn can create unrealistic expectations in the bedroom and I don't feel good about porn addiction. I also would feel uncomfortable if my man were to sort of see sex with me as a porn and as such lose touch with my essence. 

[Roy]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You shouldn't be brutally explicit with women. You gotta learn how to set certain frames though in implicit ways, so she isn't surprised.

Well that's the thing. The conversation basically came down to me being compelled (forced?) to be explicit.

So our vibrator was typically placed beside our bed on the nightstand. One morning I brought it to another room to use it while she was sleeping in. When she got up she noticed it wasn't where it usually was and teased me about it, knowing I was doing stuff alone.

"I see you used our little friend. Did you have fun?"   "Sure did babe!"   "We're you thinking about me?"   "Well most of the time yes." "What do you mean most of the time ???!!!"

I don't know what I was supposed to say? Felt like I was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either I'm honest and she appreciates it/hates it, or I lie to make her feel good. I thought about her maybe 50% of the time. I could have said, I ONLY think about you. But that would be lying to her face, even if it's kind of a coy white lie. With someone I love and trust I wouldn't be able to hold that back for very long before fessing up. That shit eats at me inside.

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Roy said:

"I see you used our little friend. Did you have fun?"   "Sure did babe!"   "We're you thinking about me?"   "Well most of the time yes." "What do you mean most of the time ???!!!"

Ahahahahahaha....

If you were clever you could have used this moment to deflect and also entrench your frame with a response like: "I was thinking about your mom." And then move on to another conversation topic. You don't have to engage girls in conversation topics which don't lead anywhere good. If she asks you who you fantasize about when you jerk off, you don't have to tell her. Which is not to say you lie to her. You just say, "Don't fill your mind with such things." and then change topics. Don't let girls lead conversations in lose-lose directions.

You should already know if your girl is too insecure to handle such a conversation.

For example, if my girl asks me to take her to the strip club and I sense that she's not secure enough to handle it, I will say NO. Because nothing good will come from that. A girl only gets to go to a strip club with me if she demonstrates that she can handle it. Many girls can't. Some girls can't even handle going to a nightclub with me. I once took an old ex gf to a Vegas nightclub and she ran out of there after 15 minutes crying. Because she was too insecure to handle the competition. I learned my lesson: I should have known she was too insecure to handle it and just refused to take her. BTW, it was her idea to go to the nightclub. I should have said NO. Because I knew she had insecurity issues.

A Vegas nightclub will make a lot of average girls feel insecure and unworthy.

Quote

I don't know what I was supposed to say? Felt like I was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either I'm honest and she appreciates it/hates it, or I lie to make her feel good. I thought about her maybe 50% of the time. I could have said, I ONLY think about you. But that would be lying to her face, even if it's kind of a coy white lie. With someone I love and trust I wouldn't be able to hold that back for very long before fessing up. That shit eats at me inside.

Your girl is just too entitled and insecure.

You tell her you were jerking off to some pornstar as if you don't even think twice about it.

Your girl just sounds inexperienced with guys. She doesn't understand how guys work. Of course you jerk off to other girls. Of course. You and 4 billion other guys.

If she protests about this, you tell her that you would rather be inside her, but if she's unavailable you are willing to settle for porn. You're doing her a favor here by not bothering her with your horniness. She also needs to understand that you have a high sex drive and you're going to use it, either on her or elsewhere.

But again, this is about proper framing. She should sense from the moment she meets you that you're a sexual tyrannosaur. There should be no doubt in her mind that you have a high sex drive and that you own it and use it. Then it's her job to satisfy you if she wants to keep you. Again, this is not said explicitly, this is sub-communicated by setting the player frame vs the boyfriend frame. Of course you can still be her boyfriend and be committed to her, but she has to know that she is taming a player here, not some dickless chump, and that you are doing her a huge favor by going exclusive with her and that she should respect that rather than getting all spoiled and whiny with you about something as trivial as porn.

Setting frames in critical for your relationships to go well. Your girl must have proper expectations about you. Once these frames are set early on, they are very difficult to reset. So learn to set them correctly right off the bat.

[aurum]

@Roy did you ask her what she masturbated to? 

[Roy]

20 minutes ago, aurum said:

@Roy did you ask her what she masturbated to? 

I don't ask questions I don't want to know the answers to.

I also wouldn't do that as a retort to her asking me because I don't play "gotcha" games with my partners. If they act childish I hold the frame as the bigger person so they won't do the same shit twice.

[aurum]

6 minutes ago, Roy said:

I don't ask questions I don't want to know the answers to.

If you’re insecure/worried about what she is masturbating to, can you really expect her not to be?

7 minutes ago, Roy said:

I also wouldn't do that as a retort to her asking me because I don't play "gotcha" games with my partners. If they act childish I hold the frame as the bigger person so they won't do the same shit twice.

Agreed, “gotcha” games would not be a good idea.

But assuming this partner was mature enough, this sounds like it was an opportunity to even further explore your sexuality with each other. Really get to know each others kinks. What does she get off to that maybe she doesn’t want anyone else to know about? Or maybe even discover some new fantasies.

The key would be to approach it with radical safety and non-judgmentalism. Which is not easy. The temptation would be to want to say what you think the other person wants to hear. It’s possible that enough maturity was not present in that relationship, but you might be able to do it in the future.

[Roy]

14 minutes ago, aurum said:

If you’re insecure/worried about what she is masturbating to, can you really expect her not to be?

It's not that I was insecure, it's just of zero interest to me. I genuinely don't care what she fantasized about, what goes on in her mind is her freedom.

Which is what I'm confused about. We were open and honest enough to give each other permission to masturbate and not judge each other, so why was she judgmental about the consequences of that freedom?

I guess the answer is she wasn't as secure as she thought she was.

 

[Roy]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You should already know if your girl is too insecure to handle such a conversation.

I had a lot of reasons to believe she was secure about it, since we negotiated so many freedoms with each other without fighting about any of it.

When it came down to the details though I guess it brought out her insecurity.

[Leo Gura]

44 minutes ago, Roy said:

so why was she judgmental about the consequences of that freedom?

Dude, of course people are doing to judge you. She isn't space Jesus.

Quote

I guess the answer is she wasn't as secure as she thought she was.

Girls are commonly insecure about such things.

Really the solution here is read between the lines of her words, quickly realize she's being insecure, and then rather than trying to logically convince her of anything, just give her the security she craves. So you hug her, maker her feel loved, look in her face, kiss her, etc. Be careful trying to win over girls with logic. It usually backfires. You gotta learn to shower them with love instead.

Basically when a girl gets pissy with you, whatever the logic is, just cut through it and realize that what she's really telling you is, "Love me more". It's not really about the porn, it's about how you make her feel. She doesn't really care about your porn, she cares how she feels. So make her feel good and then she will be fine. Rather than trying to explain yourself to her logically, just skip straight to making her feel loved.

Also, take the lead. Lead her into understanding that porn is normal and trivial for guys. Lead her to understanding that porn does not diminish your love for her.

[Yali]

@Leo Gura

How many cumulative years have you spent doing game? Has it been a big part of your life?

[Yali]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

she ran out of there after 15 minutes crying.

@Leo Gura

I can imagine myself crying out a Vegas nightclub.

I'm super insecure about my body, skinny & all. I would feel inferior. 

[aurum]

56 minutes ago, Roy said:

It's not that I was insecure, it's just of zero interest to me. I genuinely don't care what she fantasized about, what goes on in her mind is her freedom.

I said that because usually if we “don’t want to know” something intimate about a partner, it’s because we are afraid of the answer.

56 minutes ago, Roy said:

Which is what I'm confused about. We were open and honest enough to give each other permission to masturbate and not judge each other, so why was she judgmental about the consequences of that freedom?

It’s pretty much always about safety and / or love. So for whatever reason, she didn’t feel she was getting that.

It might not have been anything you did per say, could be her issues. Or maybe it was what you didn’t do.

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Really the solution here is read between the lines of her words, quickly realize she's being insecure, and then rather than trying to logically convince her of anything, just give her the security she craves. So you hug her, maker her feel loved, look in her face, kiss her, etc. Be careful trying to win over girls with logic. It usually backfires. You gotta learn to shower them with love instead.

Basically when a girl gets pissy with you, whatever the logic is, just cut through it and realize that what she's really telling you is, "Love me more". It's not really about the porn, it's about how you make her feel. She doesn't really care about your porn, she cares how she feels. So make her feel good and then she will be fine. Rather than trying to explain yourself to her logically, just skip straight to making her feel loved.

This is a good answer as well.

Edited March 10, 2022 by aurum

[Vido]

2 hours ago, Yali said:

@Leo Gura

How many cumulative years have you spent doing game? Has it been a big part of your life?

Since he was 26 I think. From what I remember

[somegirl]

@Roy She obviously thought she was secure and "cool" about it, but in the end realized she is not.

Continue doing and watching what you were warching, I guess that's normal and natural, just make sure that she doesn't have a reason to doubt yout love and devotion for her. All she cares about is that you absolutely adore her physically and as a person.

When girls get angry and insecure about their bfs watching porn, most of the time it's because they doubt their love for them. They interpret it like by you watching porn it means that you have lost attraction/love for her so you're doing these kind of things.

We just like to get assured over and over again that we're desired by you.