Why Is Enlightenment A Subjective Experience?

[Deep]

I mean you could be experiencing samadhi and your neighbor could be taking a shit. If we are all connected, why do we wake up at different times? Some people say that it's not an experience, but if it wasn't experience, it would remain an intellectual belief wouldn't it? Yes, I know that all experience is created by consciousness. If you think about it, experience is the only thing you have. Your whole life is experience; even thoughts are a part of the experience. I'm not saying anyone should chase enlightenment, I'm just asking this for fun.  

[Principium Nexus]

I think it is mainly subjective because as the term says it can "enlighten" your life and there are many ways to do that. I think we cannot define what a single word is, there are to many interpretations which are equally true, but if we were to use a description of some certain situations with certain requirements, then having a more clear understanding what is meant and is much easier to agree on.

A cool idea might be to start a poll and then ask a wide variety of people what comes to their mind if they think about enlightenment. In normal life words also have their meaning because many people agree that this word has the same definition, otherwise it would be a complete mess.

If someone says he want to buy a chair and gets for example a table then we have a big problem. Fundamentally we have to agree on some facts what we think that this words means and resembles.

The majority of the people who are not that into reading lots and lots of books about spirituality and consciousness will probably come up with a different definition than persons who have spend much time into these areas. If we would just ask the top 10 most respected spiritual persons what they think it means and get a general definition from than we have something that can be agreed upon, making it slightly less subjective but providing a clear indication what direction it is pointing towards.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Principium Nexus

[Dodo]

28 minutes ago, Deep said:

I mean you could be experiencing samadhi and your neighbor could be taking a shit. If we are all connected, why do we wake up at different times? Some people say that it's not an experience, but if it wasn't experience, it would remain an intellectual belief wouldn't it? Yes, I know that all experience is created by consciousness. If you think about it, experience is the only thing you have. Your whole life is experience; even thoughts are a part of the experience. I'm not saying anyone should chase enlightenment, I'm just asking this for fun.  

Maybe because enlightenment doesn't happen, but can only be recognised. If the mind is not aligned with this (here's where enlightenment work comes in) and if you are not searching for this recognition, you can only see it by chance (i think lower than if you are doing enlightenment work) which will take as much as it takes.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Dodoster

[Principium Nexus]

@Dodoster How can something not happen and still be recognized? It still has to happen but what it's definition is might be very broad. What I question is how specific can we be? Are we just solely speaking about a certain experience or has it do to with the transformation of a person that is significantly enough to speak of something extraordinary?

Edited January 20, 2017 by Principium Nexus

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, Principium Nexus said:

@Dodoster How can something not happen and still be recognized? It still has to happen but what it's definition is might be very broad. What I question is how specific can we be? Are we just solely speaking about a certain experience or has it do to with the transformation of a person that is significantly enough to speak of something ordinary?

It is happening all the time because you cannot not be your true self. 

Analogy with gravity. It always happens, we can only discover and recognise it, but it has always been there.

[Principium Nexus]

@Dodoster Because it is continuous and undisrupted doesn't mean it doesn't occur. We recognize it and it is always happening, same as being your true self. If enlightenment is continuous and a process that has no absolute beginning, then still we can label certain events as more transformative than others. If I were to tell someone how I obtained certain knowledge then I can improve the speed of his learning abilities. If this "certain knowledge" would be called an enlightening experience or understanding than we could say this knowledge would always be significant enough to provide someone with a big transformative insight or his/her life in general.

Enlightenment is seen and words fail to fully comprehend it's completeness.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Principium Nexus

[PureExp]

57 minutes ago, Deep said:

If you think about it, experience is the only thing you have.

Absolutely right

And everyone has different experiences. So you and neighbor have different experiences, whether its an experience of seeing objects or of "enlightenment" (I guess by that word you mean the knowing that there is only a consciousness, all else is illusory). Now the question is - why are all these experiences different if the ground below them is the same consciousness?

The answer is simple - its because these experiences come via different channels. The channels are different body-minds. The body-mind complex is what is commonly called a person (a human in our narrow meaning here). The point to be noted is - the consciousness is one, but the minds and bodies are different. It does not matter if they are only a product of consciousness, they provide different experiences and perspectives. (Of what? of itself, the consciousness experiences itself, there is nothing else there apart from it).

A good analogy is one where different cameras provide different views of the same scene to the same viewer (who is watching all screens, say a security guard). If cameras were intelligent and has speech ability, they all would say that their experience is different. The guard won't say so.

Now about the question - why stuff is subjective?

Ask yourself - have you ever experienced anything that is not subjective? A body-mind has access to only its own "dataset" (or whatever it has gathered and stored locally). So everything it gets is nothing but subjective. That answers the questions like - if we are all one substrate why can't I know what the other is thinking? Firstly, such questions arise out of ignorance, which is - confusing mind and consciousness, and secondly, how do you know that you are not already aware of thoughts of everyone?

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by PureExp

[Principium Nexus]

Often in discussions I notice that we are all talking exactly about the same thing but some people are just referring to a different layer of the onion.

It really depends on what you think you are referring to. For example enlightenment could be defined from the the most absolute oneness, which means there is no such thing because it is everything at the same time, total completeness, a void with unlimited potential.

Looking from a day-to-day society experience without all the fancy concepts of spirituality you could call it something that has a positive transformative power that is clearly seen by other people and which eventually is embedded in how you act, think and perceive all the time.

From a religious perspective it could be that when you become enlightened you will become like the holy persons described in many text. Give people vision and radiate pure compassion, love and a large understanding.

So what do you guys think, from what perspective are you looking at this definition?

Edited January 20, 2017 by Principium Nexus

[Dodo]

47 minutes ago, Principium Nexus said:

@Dodoster Because it is continuous and undisrupted doesn't mean it doesn't occur. We recognize it and it is always happening, same as being your true self. If enlightenment is continuous and a process that has no absolute beginning, then still we can label certain events as more transformative than others. If I were to tell someone how I obtained certain knowledge then I can improve the speed of his learning abilities. If this "certain knowledge" would be called an enlightening experience or understanding than we could say this knowledge would always be significant enough to provide someone with a big transformative insight or his/her life in general.

Enlightenment is seen and words fail to fully comprehend it's completeness.

We are saying the same things, even though I felt the written as being opposed to what I wrote for some reason

(its in my first comment on the topic)

Edited January 20, 2017 by Dodoster

[Deep]

@Dodoster Why don't you consider yourself to be enlightened if you know these things? 

[Deep]

1 hour ago, Principium Nexus said:

Often in discussions I notice that we are all talking exactly about the same thing but some people are just referring to a different layer of the onion.

It really depends on what you think you are referring to. For example enlightenment could be defined from the the most absolute oneness, which means there is no such thing because it is everything at the same time, total completeness, a void with unlimited potential.

So what do you guys think, from what perspective are you looking at this definition?

I think enlightenment is a state of being after having a transcendental experience like Jesus and Buddha did. It's when we feel a sense of oneness with everything. Many spiritual teachers refer to everything as being one, and I agree, but actually experiencing that is a different ballpark. I think it's important to play the game of duality until one has a transcendental experience.  

[Bob84]

@Deep must agree with those who say its not a experience. 

[Dodo]

23 minutes ago, Deep said:

@Dodoster Why don't you consider yourself to be enlightened if you know these things? 

Because I am enlightened only if everybody is enlightened 

[Deep]

2 hours ago, PureExp said:

Absolutely right

And everyone has different experiences. So you and neighbor have different experiences, whether its an experience of seeing objects or of "enlightenment" (I guess by that word you mean the knowing that there is only a consciousness, all else is illusory). Now the question is - why are all these experiences different if the ground below them is the same consciousness?

The answer is simple - its because these experiences come via different channels. The channels are different body-minds. The body-mind complex is what is commonly called a person (a human in our narrow meaning here). The point to be noted is - the consciousness is one, but the minds and bodies are different. It does not matter if they are only a product of consciousness, they provide different experiences and perspectives. (Of what? of itself, the consciousness experiences itself, there is nothing else there apart from it).

A good analogy is one where different cameras provide different views of the same scene to the same viewer (who is watching all screens, say a security guard). If cameras were intelligent and has speech ability, they all would say that their experience is different. The guard won't say so.

Now about the question - why stuff is subjective?

Ask yourself - have you ever experienced anything that is not subjective? A body-mind has access to only its own "dataset" (or whatever it has gathered and stored locally). So everything it gets is nothing but subjective. That answers the questions like - if we are all one substrate why can't I know what the other is thinking? Firstly, such questions arise out of ignorance, which is - confusing mind and consciousness, and secondly, how do you know that you are not already aware of thoughts of everyone?

 

Yes, I agree the experience is different because of our body/mind. By enlightenment I mean a state of being after having a transcendental experience. I know everything is one but it hasn't helped me, I still feel separation. lol 

[Bob84]

3 minutes ago, Deep said:

Yes, I agree the experience is different because of our body/mind. By enlightenment I mean a state of being after having a transcendental experience. I know everything is one but it hasn't helped me, I still feel separation. lol 

Awakening + attachement = fail.

[Tancrede Pouyat]

Simple : there's not a you to be enlightened, there's not an other to be enlightened, there's no awakening to be had - by you or anyone else - there's just Absolutely Nothing. Not even time and space (or even Spacetime).

And, at the same time, our 5 senses and our thoughts make it look like there are. Just like it makes it look like I am the experiencer of reality - located inside it. And that's false. What's true is that I am ALL OF REALITY. But my 5 senses and thoughts make it look like I don't believe that, and that creates too much suffering.

When I attain liberation from ego, my life will be EXACTLY the same. Except that I will finally know what's actually True, not just what looks true.

[Guest Annetta]

I don't know...
I think it's always there but people just don't see it.  And then when they do, maybe then they know that they've always been that way?

And then some forget, and remember again?
And maybe some never forget?
And there are different variations and different forms.  Maybe for one it is an experience and for another it isn't??
And different life circumstances, too...
The observer, but without a veil.  Veils are personal constructs.
So... there is no way to teach one person themselves.  Some will look and some won't.
And so some will become enlightened and some won't.