Understanding Russia & Putin

[PurpleTree]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Oliver Stone's Putin Interviews are really good. Highly recommend watching them if you want to understand Putin & the Russian perspective.

In the interviews Putin fully explains why he is so opposed to NATO. All you gotta do is listen to him with an open mind.

Might watch it but i'm pretty sure i already know why Putin is opposed to NATO

I don't even really like NATO and in a better world there would be no use for them

But if these countries next to Russia are scared of Russia and want to be in a defence pact because of it then that's fair imo

And after this attack on the Ukraine i'm more pro NATO

I thought the Muricans were mostly spreading panic, or speak an attack into existence when they said "watch out he's gonna attack" everyday

But i was wrong and this attack changes many things imo, before i thought Russia needs be more closer integrated with Western Europe but now i think Putin probably needs to be stopped. Then after that in a decade or two we still need Western Europe and Russia to be closer imo because we're neighbours and we can't change that.

[stefm5]

7 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

Yep, journalists gotta thinks twice now when showing “destroyed by Russian troops” houses and schools without mentioning that Ukrainian army deliberately places themselves and hides in places of civilian residences and then cries that Russians are killing their people. 

LOL

what is wrong with you? they are in their country, in their buildings/houses/schools. they can be wherever they like, while invaders have zero right to be there.

you seem to forget that there is an invader and a defender. i don't care who is the invader (could be us/nato/putin/erdogan/kim). the defender has every right to fight with every weapon available. civilians deaths are the result of invasion.

 

[mavelezm]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

About half way through this short clip Oliver Stone tells Putin that he does not see how Ukraine joining NATO poses any threat to Russia. And Putin gives his response, which is illuminating:

Anyone pushing war will use it as an excuse to trample human rights for national security.

His reaction at  min 1:10 though

Edited March 7, 2022 by mavelezm

[Blackhawk]

Some more busting of Russian disinformation which you guys are swallowing with hook, line, and sinker: https://www.state.gov/fact-vs-fiction-russian-disinformation-on-ukraine/

[K Ghoul]

17 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Some more busting of Russian disinformation which you guys are swallowing with hook, line, and sinker: https://www.state.gov/fact-vs-fiction-russian-disinformation-on-ukraine/

What else did you expect to find on the .gov website? Russia has the same website government.ru where they share their Russian perspective, America has theirs where their share their Western views, what about it? These are sources of different perspectives, there is nothing else than can be derived from them other than a conclusion that their perspectives are opposing each other. Neither .gov nor .ru busts anything. 

[BlueOak]

@stefm5

Its like I am back 20 years ago, seeing the Russians repeat the Americans words to me.
We invade! They are in the buildings, so we destroyed the buildings. We don't know who to shoot, so we shoot a lot of people.

What other option did we have?

NOT TO BE THERE.

Only now we've got people imprisoning people that talk about it, and someone saying that's a good thing. So they can't even see what is going on and have any reflection to the truth within their own country. I mean all these dystopian predictions seem to become more true every year.

[Blackhawk]

14 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

What else did you expect to find on the .gov website? Russia has the same website government.ru where they share their Russian perspective, America has theirs where their share their Western views, what about it? These are sources of different perspectives, there is nothing else than can be derived from them other than a conclusion that their perspectives are opposing each other. Neither .gov nor .ru busts anything. 

That's yet another Russian propaganda tactic. Which goes like this: "both sides are equally bad. USA/west is no better than Russia. In the past west did this and that, therefore west is as bad as Russia."

In Sweden we have a swedish word for that Russian manipulation trick: "kålsuparteori".

Hm I think the english word for it is "whataboutism".

You ain't fooling me with that shit.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Blackhawk

[stefm5]

17 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

@stefm5

Its like I am back 20 years ago, seeing the Russians repeat the Americans words to me.
We invade! They are in the buildings, so we destroyed the buildings. We don't know who to shoot, so we shoot a lot of people.

What other option did we have?

NOT TO BE THERE.

Only now we've got people imprisoning people that talk about it, and someone saying that's a good thing. So they can't even see what is going on and have any reflection to the truth within their own country. I mean all these dystopian predictions seem to become more true every year.

That's exactly the COMMON SENSE. NOT TO BE THERE.

But this forum is full of kids trying to justify their biases with endless mental masturbation and straw man arguments. The real issue is the invasion, not the defense! 

Imagine a thief coming into your house and demanding you to leave in order to save your life. You choose to stay and fight risking your life. Do you know a court that would blame you for resisting/dying? Do you know a court that would declare the thief innocent because he warned you? This is stupid to even argue.

Wake up kids, leave your thoughts aside and feel. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by stefm5

[K Ghoul]

3 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

You ain't fooling me with that shit.

I don’t know where this misconception is coming from that I am trying to fool you or anyone else - you have no idea how little I care about what you or anyone else thinks or wants to think about this conflict. Assuming that my goal is to try and change how someone think is a bit naive. I’m just here passing some time, sharing thoughts, having fun 

 

[axiom]

5 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

That's yet another Russian propaganda tactic. Which goes like this: "both sides are equally bad. USA/west is no better than Russia. In the past west did this and that, therefore west is as bad as Russia."

In Sweden we have a swedish word for that Russian manipulation trick: "kålsuparteori".

Hm I think the english word for it is "whataboutism".

You ain't fooling me with that shit.

Why do you think Putin invaded Ukraine?

[Blackhawk]

2 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

I don’t know where this misconception is coming from that I am trying to fool you or anyone else - you have no idea how little I care about what you or anyone else thinks or wants to think about this conflict. Assuming that my goal is to try and change how someone think is a bit naive. I’m just here passing some time, sharing thoughts, having fun 

Not just you, but also in general all the disinformation and propaganda which is costantly attacking our minds. If you no longer can distinguish between who is good and who is bad (whataboutism/"lika goda kålsupare") then your mind has been succesfully hacked by the evil side.

[BlueOak]

@stefm5 It is the immediate concern but there is a limited amount I can do about the defense. I have done the tiny amount I can elsewhere.

So yeah that emotion was purely self indulgent of me and also useless. Didn't help anything, only division and separation and to make me feel good. Emotional masturbation we can call it.

@K Ghoul Apologies for the above.

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Not just you, but also in general all the disinformation and propaganda which is costantly attacking our minds. If you no longer can distinguish between who is good and who is bad (whataboutism/"lika goda kålsupare") then your mind has been succesfully hacked by the evil side.

i don't think there's black and white, nobody is totally good and nobody is totally bad

people think they're doing good while doing bad etc. or people think they're doing bad for an ultimate greater good

but the invasion needs to be stopped and condemned 

 

[Blackhawk]

11 minutes ago, axiom said:

Why do you think Putin invaded Ukraine?

Two reasons.

To enlarge the Russian Federation. Or at least install a pro-Russia puppet regime in Ukraine.

And also because of this:

"Putin nurses a deep sense of grievance over the loss of Russia’s power and influence since the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991. Ukraine was formerly part of the Soviet Union but declared its independence in 1991.

Having a prosperous, modern, independent and democratic European state bordering Russia was perceived as posing a threat to Russia’s autocratic regime. If Ukrainians succeeded in fully reforming their country along lines of other western democracies, it would set a bad precedent for former Soviet countries and serve as an example for Russians who want a more democratic country."

https://theconversation.com/why-did-russia-invade-ukraine-faqs-about-the-conflict-that-has-shocked-the-world-177963

[stefm5]

15 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

@stefm5 It is the immediate concern but there is a limited amount I can do about the defense. I have done the tiny amount I can elsewhere.

So yeah that emotion was purely self indulgent of me and also useless. Didn't help anything, only division and separation and to make me feel good. Emotional masturbation we can call it.
 

*the invaders shouldn't be there*.

feeling never leads to separation. thoughts do that.

the word 'invasion' feels bad. the word 'war' feels bad too. that's the truth. people use different words in order to hide the feeling, like 'conflict'. or try to rationalize/argue adding thoughts on thoughts to mask the truth. but deep inside the feeling is there. stop being devils.

'self-determination' 'freedom' 'love' 'brothers' feel good. so if everyone practice what feels good, this dream will be a better place to be.

relatively speaking no fucking agenda justifies killing people. yes we can understand the perspective but we shouldn't buy it.

[Fleetinglife]

55 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Not just you, but also in general all the disinformation and propaganda which is costantly attacking our minds. If you no longer can distinguish between who is good and who is bad (whataboutism/"lika goda kålsupare") then your mind has been succesfully hacked by the evil side.

Now you are starting to sound a bit too much conspiratorial for ascribing such stuff to ordinary people. This is some Star Wars level conception stuff about the "force" "light side" " evil dark side" etc. 

[hello1234]

28 minutes ago, Fleetinglife said:

Now you are starting to sound a bit too much conspiratorial for ascribing such stuff to ordinary people. This is some Star Wars level conception stuff about the "force" "light side" " evil dark side" etc. 

As a Ukrainian I can spot a lot of russian propaganda in these threats as well. Some of the newly created propaganda I read is becoming so predictable already, I feel I can start creating pro russian propaganda myself now (the key is to portray russia as the victim, not having other choice, throw in some “Ukrainians are nazis” narrative, and for a certain audience you can also throw in how this is a peacekeeping mission)

Also, a lot of people in these threads have legit empathy impairments/mental disorders and can also be very aggressive/provocative on purpose (which can be very subtle). It’s hard to stomach their comments for someone who does have empathy and some people are better at picking up on this subtle aggression.

Edited March 7, 2022 by hello1234

[K Ghoul]

17 minutes ago, stefm5 said:

*the invaders shouldn't be there*.

feeling never leads to separation. thoughts do that.

the word 'invasion' feels bad. the word 'war' feels bad too. that's the truth. people use different words in order to hide the feeling, like 'conflict'. or try to rationalize/argue adding thoughts on thoughts to mask the truth. but deep inside the feeling is there. stop being devils.

'self-determination' 'freedom' 'love' 'brothers' feel good. so if everyone practice what feels good, this dream will be a better place to be.

relatively speaking no fucking agenda justifies killing people. yes we can understand the perspective but we shouldn't buy it.

I use the word “conflict” because that’s how I see it, not because I’m trying to hide some bad feelings (?)
I don’t recall any media coverage for thousands of turtles that got killed in the Deepwater Horizon oil spill incident (estimated 4,900–7,600 large juvenile and adult sea turtles and between 56,000–166,000 small juvenile sea turtles were killed by the spill) - was that not evil? How do we decide what’s more evil - innocent wildlife dying in thousands, entire species going extinct because of human greed and incompetence or people killing each other because they couldn’t figure out the logistics of their business, geopolitical, political and personal relationships.

[PurpleTree]

5 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

I use the word “conflict” because that’s how I see it, not because I’m trying to hide some bad feelings (?)
I don’t recall any media coverage for thousands of turtles that got killed in the Deepwater Horizon oil spill incident (estimated 4,900–7,600 large juvenile and adult sea turtles and between 56,000–166,000 small juvenile sea turtles were killed by the spill) - was that not evil? How do we decide what’s more evil - innocent wildlife dying in thousands, entire species going extinct because of human greed and incompetence or people killing each other because they couldn’t figure out the logistics of their business, geopolitical, political and personal relationships.

are you vegetarian/vegan?

it's certainly very bad that these turtles died. but i guess we often still prioritise humans over animals or plants

Edited March 7, 2022 by PurpleTree

[BlueOak]

@stefm5 I have an internal struggle between properly integrating emotion and thought right now. I am getting mixed messages shown back to me as as result. It doesn't help that this is the most stressful time we all find ourselves under and everyone is going through it.

Emotions can absolutely divide, it comes from the identity they were founded on or to create a new one. If I was angry and shouting in your face, that would be an emotion that would be sure to separate.

What I just did to K Ghoul was make their words out as entirely separate from me, reject what they said, belittle them, and tell them to have a different perspective. I've done that three times since I've been on this forum and apologized to each person I did it to. Its a an abusive trauma I suffered growing up which I still repeat. It was a complete detachment from their words, and then a complete lack of my attempt to understand or empathize with them.

Yes no agenda can justify killing. Killing for killing is the most brutal and hard to accept part of humanity there is. I wish more of that was echoed in those around me and in myself. I wish there was a far greater outcry for how much this is hurting others and the trauma it inflicts on generations to come, the distrust, the division and the pain. That emotion is needed but so is empathy.

Edited March 7, 2022 by BlueOak