Understanding Russia & Putin

[Fandango]

Most Prime Ministers in Europe are not good leaders, they are in power just for a brief period of time and have other things in their personal agendas.

Putin has been in power for 17 years, he is more experienced than most european politicians. Don´t underestimate him. He didn´t think it was going to be an easy war.

It amazes me how not one country in the West thought about being a good idea staying neutral and not sending weapons to help the Ukranians,.. ah well, yeah because if you do it as Prime Minister you won´t be reelected. Putin is above that in a sense (not in a good sense though), he is doing what he thinks he needs to do and he doesnt need the approval of the russians, they will do what he says

Note: I am against Putin and war. If my comments triggers you, ask yourself why. We are just debating.

[peanutspathtotruth]

@KingCrimson Amazing take, thank you for sharing! I'm so curious to watch the interviews as well, gonna start as soon as possible.

[Fleetinglife]

5 hours ago, hello1234 said:

As a Ukrainian I can spot a lot of russian propaganda in these threats as well. Some of the newly created propaganda I read is becoming so predictable already, I feel I can start creating pro russian propaganda myself now (the key is to portray russia as the victim, not having other choice, throw in some “Ukrainians are nazis” narrative, and for a certain audience you can also throw in how this is a peacekeeping mission)

Also, a lot of people in these threads have legit empathy impairments/mental disorders and can also be very aggressive/provocative on purpose (which can be very subtle). It’s hard to stomach their comments for someone who does have empathy and some people are better at picking up on this subtle aggression.

What are you spotting exactly? That this guy is so psychologically insecure that he is ascribing randomly malicious motive to people who disagree with his stances and claims about NATO and what the Russian side is attempting to do, then what is being forwarded as its motives in mainstream news and media that he consumes there.

What he is basically engaging in here is black/white duality, to those who know anything about or attempt to embody and practice what Leo teaches here know is a plainly false way to look at the world, reality, and people in it. He is engaging in demonizations and strawmen of people who disagree with him, while the side he, rightfully or unrightfully, praises in this whole thing lets his biases slide through because he is uncritically praising, sucking up, and siding with them. Why? Well of course out of his bias no being on the other side on this for the benefits of his own identity survival there and being against Russia plain and simple. He doesn't care about finding the truth in all this, what he cares about maintaining the survival of his identity that this threatened by this whole thing happening, revolving around his beliefs about NATO, Sweden, and Russia, while doing this simultaneously using Star Wars cognitive, mental and emotional development level analogies and theories about other people, governments, the world and reality in general.

Demonizing and strawman the whole of the Ukrainians there, their cause and struggle are also not true and a false way to look at the world, but uncritically praising and signing laurels about all of them there will also not get you anywhere either into finding constructive ways to resolve this crisis (Russia aggressively attacked but as we know it had some of its own reasons to do so given the perspective of Russia and Russians living there, it didn't attack unprovoked, from its perspective, which is propaganda line repeated in the Western media and NATO countries safeguarding and obfuscating to claim part of NATO's responsibilities and their lobby in Ukraine in all this for refusing and outright denying any possibility of any compromisable solution - Finlandization on this thread was mentioned a lot. 

Of course majority of Ukranians are innocent civilians in all this who just voted in according with their own conscious and needs for what they thought was the best path forward for them and their country and are now defending their homeland from invaders from Russia, but also there is not small part of Ukranians who were military trained prior, militarized and indoctrinated into their own versions of extreme ideologies to serve as being a sort of anti-Russian vanguard and force in the part of the country where there are people who felt more alligned with Russia and the Russian langage speaking parts of the country, and those people were responsible for some of the attrocities, human rights abuses, massacres and war crimes happening in the the ongoing war in the Donbass for 8 years now, that this is it's now peak escalation and a failed attempt and a deliberate protraction of peace talks on one part stimulated and incentivized by the Ukranian, NATO and US side in order to buy time for them to furrow through eventually their NATO membership, training, arming and militarization of the country in order for them to get out of this what they want (i.e. permanent NATO pressence and membership of the country at some point in time that they hope would help them eventually solve the Crimea and Donbass issue - reincorporating them again fully into the Ukrainian state but now as part of a NATO member so Russia will have to give up on them and so it can't again then try to take them due to the risk of attacking a NATO member now and invoking Article 5 - subtle strategic chess game they have been playing around with this in the background for the past 8 years), international media in the world, mostly in the West, out of their own self-interests and defense lobbying, in part coming from NATO, present in their media ecosystem downplayed and choose to lessen it's coverage about it and now when shit hit the fan regarding that they have all gone into a frenzy about it just now.

Before going around and armchair psychologizing and mentally diagnosing people, as a layman in psychology and perhaps at most some amateur reader and student of some psych literature, as all of the rest of some of us here as well, I would point to you to a slight layman's advice, logical personal psychological and ethical issue regarding that here as well, of trying may be at least in asking yourself perhaps, very radically honestly, self-reflectively and introspectively, why are diagnosing and ascribing to one side these psychological traits to one side in this conversation while the other side is automatically virtuous and empathetic to you simply by the fact of praising and supporting one side in this whole conflict, the one side you identify with and agree on, regardless of why they are taking a certain stance in this situation might be to what biases they themselves hold in regards to Russia and not so much the Ukrainian issue as a whole, out of their own self-concern and safety of their own ass, why are you blind in this regard of not seeing the possibilty of the other side holding these traits as well but you are not seeing them because they support the side that you identify with out of their own biases and self-interest in this whole sitauation? What does this constant diagnosing of people serve you? What does it accomplish for you? How does it favor you? Does it favor you, do disfavor for others, or at the expense of others - extending empathy to only one side and denying it completely to the other?

Those are the hardest and most bitter questions one must ask for himself if he is to completely rid himself of the falsehoods and false dichotomies that he creates in reality out of his own self-bias born out of the desire for the maintenance and survival of his own identity and that some require some consciousness work and deep honest introspection of what this site Leo created is all about - to finding out the most personally unwarped unbiased Truth existing possible in reality.

This doesn't mean that I am immune to all of this of what I as well ascribed to you above, but I am at least willing to admit that I am aware of it and that if I want to work on constructing fulfilling a happier, fulfilling, and conscious life in my short period of existence on this planet as this separate self, that as all others here will cease to exist and be gone at some point forever as I knew it and experienced it.

So my only advice to you be, out of concern, is to watch and look out for all this stuff in you as well, that is as our ego is the most self-deceptive and trickster entity and tool existing in reality, that you ascribe to and exclusively demonize onto to others in order to distance yourself from them for the benefit of your own survival and keep the empathy only when it suits the maintaining and keeping intact your carefully constructed self's identity and image of itself - as an empathetic person in contrast to those who are not, and henceforth don't the same extension of such as you and others who are on your side and uncritically support you do, regardless of how much actual empathy and understanding they have that is universal and that can be extended to all sides equally, all people, not being discriminatory towards one when it suits their ego to do so and the survival of their own narrow selfishly cultivated identity.

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Fleetinglife

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

We have difficultly sustaining a democracy in America. 1/3rd the country believes Biden wasn't democratically elected.

The 2024 US election could be stolen by the Republicans.

Expecting democracy in Russia or China right now is a pipe dream.

Before our democracy in the US finally gets completely healed in the future, do you believe that our country will first experience such a massive decline in our level of democracy to the point of becoming a hybrid regime like in Hong Kong or in Turkey?

Edited March 7, 2022 by Hardkill

[Fandango]

2 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Before our democracy in the US finally get completely healed, do you believe that our country will experience such a massive decline in our level of democracy to the point of being a hybrid regime like in Hong Kong or in Turkey?

before get completely healed? an hybrid regime? the world could go back to medieval times (kidding, not kidding)

[Fleetinglife]

20 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

About half way through this short clip Oliver Stone tells Putin that he does not see how Ukraine joining NATO poses any threat to Russia. And Putin gives his response, which is illuminating:

What he is said there proved to be kind of true, from the perspective of his decision and moves being made he ultimately greenlighted for Ukraine, and proved to be a self-fulfilling prophecy for him, regarding his claim about and view on what NATO is, how it operates when push comes to show, how it would act in unison and accordance towards this situation and what it means for them - since one can look at the major nations of the EU, and also members of NATO -

and see now their massive increase in the yearly allocation of the government budget for defense spending and buying US produced/NATO hardware when they thought the situation called for it to be done, and all the nations in NATO in Europe having to go along with that decision, almost in sync, momentarily, having to adjust and reorient themselves with that decision being made with defense spending bill increase, and increase in military aid for Ukraine being momentarily passed in the US Congress -

and all the talk of the increase and focus in investment for renewable energies, just dropped, has been in these few days observably lessened in its advocacy and presence, and went almost out of the discourse completely as a yearly future focus and main economic concern for those nations, and instead, they got the rightization of their overall political discourse in Europe and the revival of kinda being good now again to be praiseworthy in the mainstream of/for Poland (that they complained about constantly for its anti-EU nationalism, illiberalism, social rights, women's rights and about its anti-abortion laws) to act and be as a social and political equivalent Texas in Europe now suddenly again for the purposes of it's NATO remilitarization towards Russia.

The hypocrisy of it all and narrative shift for the purposes of its instrumentalizations, all in real-time now, one can only grin at the deep irony of it all 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Fleetinglife

[peanutspathtotruth]

@Fleetinglife I would love to follow your thoughts, you seem to have a lot to say. But I've been habitually skipping your posts here for a while because you basically write one or two huge sentences in one block. It's really just an observation. It's VERY hard to follow your thinking this way. Maybe just as a truly friendly hint that this might be difficult for others to follow as well <3

[BlueOak]

4 hours ago, Fandango said:

Shouldn´t we let Russia conquer Ukraine and prevent people dying instead of sending weapons to them thinking that we are helping? This will also prevent from starting WW3.

It amazes me how people think that if we let Putin win he will try to conquer the world or something like that. That is not what he is doing.

Putin is far from being an idiot or crazy

You see one side of the fear. The fear of and from Russia if they lose. What you don't see is the exact same thing mirrored in NATO and Europe, especially in the east. Both will have the same result unless both can be seen to come out with a 'win' because this is a zero sum game all countries currently play.

Like most. You completely miss what the Ukrainians themselves want and that there will be no peace because a Russian government will not represent the people. Russia will not adapt. Even if everyone but Ukraine worked for Russia to secure Ukraine, there will still be rebellion, until Ukraine's perspective is given the most attention for their own country. There has just been a revolution, now their country is at war.

Putin is making a bad decision after a bad decision, based on a fantasy that doesn't exist, ignoring the reality of his own country which is in decline not the old USSR.

Recent Bad Decisions:

Invade Crimea, Ukraine moves closer to NATO
Start a proxy war, Ukraine moves closer to NATO
Invade Ukraine, Ukraine almost completely aligns with the western perspective. 
NATO is more unified than ever, the EU even drew closer together from a disjointed mess.
Demand the disarmament of the population, it makes every soldier your enemy.
Send 150,000 troops when he needs a million.
Not supply his special forces when they needed it so many die in the first few days.
Send generals to the front so three of them die.
Not acknowledge he's in a war, so not plan or execute one.
Underestimate his opposition
Underestimate Eastern Europes reaction and so NATO's reaction.
Not prepare his forces for the reality of what they will face, so they stall, their morale breaks and many conscripts run. 
By far the biggest mistake was invading the entire country in the first place. He is now purely in reaction and has lost many of his options. He's closed his country down into soviet times and become like Stalin.

He didn't understand or like almost anyone I see speak on Ukraines own perspective, or that of eastern europe. He didn't know how the people of Ukraine would receive him

I could do the wests bad decisions and the post would be about as long. In fact just swap the words over and you've almost got it. Unprepared, not realising the danger, underestimating, not acknowledging reality, fear ruling their decision making. Also add some arrogance and even more warmongering factors like an entire industry dedicated to it.

Edited March 8, 2022 by BlueOak

[Fleetinglife]

51 minutes ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

I would love to follow your thoughts, you seem to have a lot to say. But I've been habitually skipping your posts here for a while because you basically write one or two huge sentences in one block. It's really just an observation. It's VERY hard to follow your thinking this way. Maybe just as a truly friendly hint that this might be difficult for others to follow as well <3

Sorry again for being another frustrated reader attempting and wanting to read some of my hurriedly composed posts in that, as a result of me writing in such a way  I apologize for causing frustration regarding that? when I write in the hurry what I think about something (when many thoughts come rushing into me about it regarding the topic) and then I only later I have to screen it, attempt to recompose it and correct some of its mistakes in order for it to be more clear, straightforwardly composed and easier to read (unfortunately I do that and usually unconsciously currently and then later notice all my mistakes I made and reading clarity for other's problem that afterward after I write all my thoughts about the topic). Sorry, it seems it is as slight existing neurosis existing while wanting to write and compose my thoughts currently about something, thanks again for pointing towards that fault, problem and error and existing through your difficulty of easily processing what I write and the way I write - I will work to screen some previous posts and re-compose and perhaps where it is needed for reading clarity and comprehension purposes to re-write them in such a way so they can be more easily read, more easily understood and be understandable and more clear in their overall appearance and sentence placement and modification to be more clearly seen for the eye overall.

Thanks again for pointing out my mistakes and faults in overall reading comprehension and clarity of what I have written about out ??, and I will work out now on correcting out and re-writing parts of them if necessary some of those I already composed in such a way to be easier to read and more clear for the eye and try again to better and more clearly and easily for the eye to read to compose them in the next posts I attempt to write. ?

Edited March 7, 2022 by Fleetinglife

[Fleetinglife]

3 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Invade Crimera, Ukraine moves closer to NATO

The Russian side of course disputes this being the first domino effect in this 'bad decisions list'  starting point that you speak of and composed. They say that the Maidan revolution (or coup as they say since Yanukovych wasn't deposed democratically in an election) and those supporting the political class (that had prior western ties via some Ukranian oligarchs) and part of the population behind the ''coup'' and giving it help and greenlighting it in the US State Department (all the usual suspects on their list) was, in fact, the first thing that had the inevitable aim of dragging Ukraine into NATO as border zone with Russia and that they, in fact, had to and have been forced to invade, hold a popular referendum and annex Crimea since Ukraine, with the government that was being hand picked and selected post-Maidan, would have inevitably weened towards US, EU and eventually NATO membership, and that they had to invade Crimea in order to secure their very important  strategic base and entrance on the Black Sea and that the situation simply spiraled out of control and radicalized into the Donbas and Ukraine since then to be even more vehemently pro-NATO because of that, but the Russians thought that they had no choice to leave all their strategic assets out in the open in a country, then unwilling to negotiate and compromise with them, and that they had to leave all their influence over some parts of the country, population and strategic assests crucial to their military budget they invest from their natural resources exports to Europe all from the country, and leave it all to a leadership, state exclusively pro-US, NATO alligned and EU seveering all previous ties it and agreements it had with Russia, that almost speaks the same langauge and has almost the same culture as them, but unwilling to compromise with them on anything and going in it's most developed parts to be exclusively pro-US and pro-NATO alligned in contrast to the whole of it and it's territorial stretch.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Fleetinglife

[Fleetinglife]

2 hours ago, KingCrimson said:

It's possible that he has gone off the rails, but I find that highly unlikely. It is certainly an explanation, but there are far more obvious, rational explanations that have to do with geopolitics which I find way more plausible. It has all been talked about in this thread before: The expansion of NATO and the perceived threat by Russia, broken agreements, openly hostile communication (Biden calling Putin a "killer", Hilary Clinton comparing him to Hitler are just the tip of the iceberg), etc. I believe the most plausible explanation is that since NATO refused to promise to Russia that Ukraine would not join NATO, and that this would never change by means of diplomoacy, he took matters into his own hands, acted tough and did what he thought was necessary. I do not agree with his decision. Like everybody else, I am obviously against war and violence of any kind. But I believe it is easy enough to understand Putin's rationale for what he's doing, if you are actually interested in understanding, not moralizing.

 

2 hours ago, KingCrimson said:

I could be wrong, but this situation reminds me of when a terrible crime happens, and suddenly, there is a rise in approval for the death penalty in the morally outraged public, which returns to normal levels after some time has passed. It is understandable that Sweden and Finland would want to consider joining NATO under these circumstances, but I think it's a bad idea. Expansion of NATO has led us to the ever-increasing escalation we find ourselves in now. Having even more countries join NATO and them spending even more money on their military will further destabilize the balance of power. Already, NATO are outspending Russia 20 to 1 on military expenses. The US alone spend more money on their military than every other nation on the planet combined. This is an undeniable reality that has to be factored into one's considerations on this tricky subject at all times. NATO claiming it is not a threat is all well and good, but how believable is that when they have by far the most technologically advanced and best-maintained armed forces in the world? Of course they are a massive threat from Russia's perspective.

+1 For understanding Russia's survival perspective and dilemma in all this from an outsider's viewpoint almost perfectly to a tee kamaraden ?

They were aiming to  slowly and step-by-step work on its isolation and complete neutralization of it from a military standpoint in the world and lessen the media influence of its perspective in the developing Global South and Third World for a long time before now, as a potentially dangerous wounded animal to them much before this, when this trend has now simply kicked in full swing now

2 hours ago, KingCrimson said:

Sadly, everything seems to point towards a new arms race. Germany for example has now committed to spending over 100 billion dollars a year on their military already, which would make their military the third most expensive in the world behind the US (~800 billion) and China (~250 billion). NATO has been pushing for Germany to spend 2% of their GDP on their military for years, but Germany didn't want to. This has now changed.

Yeah, I was shocked when I heard that news honestly. Deutschland Erwacheing (don't take offense to this I only mean it exclusively in a sarcastic and ironic way ) and reasserting again and it's resurrecting it's until now carefully hidden the potential Federal Republic of Reichswehr deserved military influence and standing in patience for decades across the globe powered by its economic reach and might across the world 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Fleetinglife

[BlueOak]

@Fleetinglife
NATO made plenty of bad decisions. Ukraine did too. We can all see them if we look.

But if the objective was to not get Ukraine to join NATO invading the Crimea showed a lack of understanding of Ukraine or Eastern Europe's perspective, a common theme through almost all commentators and people speaking about it. The west didn't understand Russia's perspective and Putin sure didn't understand Eastern Europe's either it seems.

You can watch documentaries on the coup and see students being arrested then, all the violence, the resistance, the community coming together, the church getting involved and people shot. The government in the coup brought itself down with its own actions. When the governments' opposition party sent a spokesman to speak to the protesters before its fall, he was so out of touch with the people's anger after all the violence I was completely stunned. All of the government were so far out of touch it crumbled. 

You;ll be never able to convince me that the USA somehow convinced the church or the local population to do something it didn't want to do. That anger wasn't there and boiling over toward a government that didn't reflect the population at all. Just like any puppet government won't this time, because nobody seems to ever want to recognize that you can only rule a country with a government that it accepts or expects. Russia meddles in the western countries' politics in the same way, but if people don't have the opinion in the first place, nothing can come of it. All they can do is expose what is already there and give it a voice.

Edited March 8, 2022 by BlueOak

[Preety_India]

@BlueOak it's not Crimera. It's Crimea. 

 

[BlueOak]

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@BlueOak it's not Crimera. It's Crimea. 

 

Thank you I can't get spell check to work yet in this browser. *edited.

Edited March 8, 2022 by BlueOak

[PurpleTree]

i hope that even if "we" (the west) or the russians do get rid of putin, and russia gets a new leader and becomes more democratic and the ukraine joins the e.u. or whatever.

that we still look at our own faults critically at what the west and nato could have done better

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by PurpleTree

[Blackhawk]

7 hours ago, axiom said:

Numerous warnings about NATO expanding eastwards have been given now for decades, and these come from Western leaders

No.

7 hours ago, axiom said:

As the National Security Archive at Washington University shows, during the reunification of Germany, explicit assurances were given to Russia that Nato would not expand "one inch eastward". This promise was broken - and repeatedly so - culminating in a US-orchestrated coup in Ukraine in 2014 and the installation of a puppet administration loyal to US interests. Putin's eventual response has been all too preventable, and all too predictable. 

And no to all that too.

Btw, even if some dude gave a verbal promise to someone behind closed doors.. that's not how Nato works.

Nato isn't one country. So USA alone can't decide for Nato. Nato is a intergovernmental organization. So all member countries would have to vote for it, and then it has to be written down.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Blackhawk

[Hardkill]

Zelensky really needs to concede to Putin. The Ukrainians are only delaying the inevitable at the cost of more lives being needlessly destroyed and the country being continuously destroyed until there will be nothing left.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Hardkill

[Blackhawk]

4 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Zelensky really needs to concede to Putin. The Ukrainians are only delaying the inevitable at the cost of more lives being needlessly destroyed and the country being continuously destroyed until there will be nothing left.

Forget it.

When Russia unprovokedly raped Finland, you think the finnish people should have gave up?

Edited March 8, 2022 by Blackhawk

[Hardkill]

33 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Forget it.

When Russia unprovokedly raped Finland, you think the finnish people should have gave up?

Yes do. They then would fight back for their land another day when the time was right. That’s exactly what the Ukrainians need to do.

[Blackhawk]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

Yes do. They then would fight back for their land another day when the time was right. That’s exactly what the Ukrainians need to do.

Haha, okay.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Blackhawk