How can one trust the insights received from man made chemicals?

[Arthogaan]

If some extremely inteligent monkey out of the forest would make some weird soup from some sticks and grass would it be natural? If the same monkey then made 5-Meo would it be natural? Is Sodium Chloride (salt) natural?

[Jodistrict]

3 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

They are asked permission Leo, look, cant you hear them saying "Yes" clearly? ?

It sounds silly to the modern western mind that believes it is wise.   Keep in mind that if the toad is not treated with sensitivity and thus is under stress it can eject other venoms into the medicine. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Jodistrict

[sleep]

How can you trust brain-made chemicals?

[sleep]

@Jodistrict have you ever seen them say no? I'm curious to know as how they interpret the toads consenting or not

[Jodistrict]

21 minutes ago, sleep said:

@Jodistrict have you ever seen them say no? I'm curious to know as how they interpret the toads consenting or not

They obviously don't talk but they do communicate.    If you are experienced and work with the animals you can certainly tell when they are not ready and not giving consent.  

[Leo Gura]

How can you trust nature if nature made man?

Checkmate.

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

It sounds silly to the modern western mind that believes it is wise.   Keep in mind that if the toad is not treated with sensitivity and thus is under stress it can eject other venoms into the medicine. 

I agree with that. But i find outrighteous to affirm that they are asked permission to extract their poison. Wtf? 

Im all ears to hear how they Ask permission to the toad ??‍♂️

[Jodistrict]

51 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I agree with that. But i find outrighteous to affirm that they are asked permission to extract their poison. Wtf? 

Im all ears to hear how they Ask permission to the toad ??‍♂️

It seems strange, because you are assuming communication can only be done verbally.  

[Javfly33]

2 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

It seems strange, because you are assuming communication can only be done verbally.  

Oh cmoooon

[sleep]

@Jodistrict what are some signs when they don't constent? Have you ever seen one not consent? 

[Jodistrict]

1 hour ago, sleep said:

@Jodistrict what are some signs when they don't constent? Have you ever seen one not consent? 

If you observed the toads yourself you would see their full range of behavior and eventually figure it out.  People who have pets know when they are under stress.   Why does someone want to connect with God when they can’t even connect with a toad?  That’s one of the difference between synthetic and natural.  

[Leo Gura]

I know I could buy my salt at the store, but I prefer to it get naturally from the tears of baby animals. It's more spiritual this way because it's more natural and done with their consent

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

If you observed the toads yourself you would see their full range of behavior and eventually figure it out.  People who have pets know when they are under stress.   Why does someone want to connect with God when they can’t even connect with a toad?  That’s one of the difference between synthetic and natural.  

Do you acknowledge that triggering a physiological defence mechanism in an animal is inherently stressful or is that just my Western evolutionism talking?

[Jodistrict]

32 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Do you acknowledge that triggering a physiological defence mechanism in an animal is inherently stressful or is that just my Western evolutionism talking?

That's why they ask permission, treat the toad with respect, and use techniques to relax it like massage.  The Peruvian Indians also milk the Kambo frogs.  Yes, it is a technique and done routinely by those with the skills.   Perhaps it is growing up in a city and having no contact with wild animals that makes this surprising to some.  

Edited March 7, 2022 by Jodistrict

[Loba]

@Leo Gura Cool, try some coke for the next two years

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

That's why they ask permission, treat the toad with respect, and use techniques to relax it like massage.  The Peruvian Indians also milk the Kambo frogs.  Yes, it is a technique and done routinely by those with the skills.   Perhaps it is growing up in a city and having no contact with wild animals that makes this surprising to some.  

"Hey, can I tie you up and rape you if I massage you respectfully?" 

[PepperBlossoms]

I think that to some degree, yes taking drugs will give you different experiences and may change your brain to where you think things differently and get epiphanies.

But I think also to some degree, people get temporary or permanent brain damage from the drugs which they create insights from and call themselves enlightened when really their brain is just damaged.

In  "A Mind So Rare" by Merlin Donald (page 71-73):

"he was unable to extend his awareness beyond anything that was in front of him"

"his attention span was confined to a time window of only a few seconds"

"he lost major parts of the occipital and parietal cortex on the left side of his brain"

"he could not follow a movie because he could not retain such a long series of events"

"he had difficulty remembering things"

When people say, "I experienced that the world was not real and neither were any of the people in it" - there is a chance that you lost your memory and only saw certain things because of what happened to your brain.

When people say "the only thing that exists right now is what I am experiencing" - well again that could be brain damage where the brain is unable to take in other things.

How about the idea - physical reality creates the structures that allow us to be conscious and our consciousness is what allows us to experience/see physical reality - - like they work together and evolve together.  Our perception impacts our notion of reality and reality impacts our perception.

Again, who knows and I could be wrong and have changed my opinion over and over again.   But it is just looking like people defending strongly in the dream theory is more like faith/dogma/religion.

Note the idea that based on the brain's impairments/functioning - that will impact your processing/awareness.

Also, if dream theory worked, I should be able to imagine a pizza on my bed and have it be there........

Edited March 7, 2022 by PepperBlossoms

[PepperBlossoms]

[evolving55555]

On 3/7/2022 at 0:47 AM, Loba said:

@Leo Gura Cool, try some coke for the next two years

That's what I'm thinking about. I need more clarification to justify taking man-made drugs 

@Leo Gura

[zurew]

@PepperBlossoms

20 hours ago, PepperBlossoms said:

How about the idea - physical reality creates the structures that allow us to be conscious and our consciousness is what allows us to experience/see physical reality - - like they work together and evolve together.  Our perception impacts our notion of reality and reality impacts our perception.

If we radically change the chemical levels in your brain and body, your perception of 'reality' will radically change as well. Not only just that, but your identity will change automatically as well. Why do you want to be attached to only one state? What you think you know about yourself and the world is only attached to that one state. You can discover yourself from different states and you can do that with the world aswell. Why and on what basis assume that one state is superior to another? The main reason why you think you are a human is because you took this state for granted and think that only this state can provide the right perspective. Even the 'chemical level story in the brain' is attached to this identity and knowledge that you try to ground reality and yourself in. 

Also what you can't forget, that even if you assume that there is a reality out there outside of you, even within that framework you can only experience your version of reality. You cannot escape your peception. You always distort reality and can only experience your own distortion of it. Name one thing that was outside of your experience. You basically cannot do it, because it will be automatically be in your experience in one way or another. Also i want to add here, about your perception of your own self and about your identity that it is also distorted by you. You don't see yourself in its whole form, because you only experience your distorted, biased version of it. Thats why most spiritual teaching is about ego death, is because if the ego is dead, then the distortion and bias will be gone automatically. If you take up any finite identity, there will always be some distortion and bias. You don't have to agree with that, but just think about it, and contemplate it.

Edited March 8, 2022 by zurew