Putin: A Deteriorating Narcissistic Mind

[Ulax]

6 hours ago, Joel3102 said:

Just calling him a psychopath is lazy, but I also think this obsession with relativism and refusing to call a spade a spade regarding what the other side is doing can be silly. It seems as if Putin specifically is a problematic leader who is more hardline than previous leaders. Literally everyone downplaying Russia prior to the invasion was saying it wouldn't happen, which should tell you something.

 

 

I don't think its so much about relativism on this forum.

Its more about developmental psychology models like spiral dynamics. Its a key part of the work on here.

So, seeing it in terms of Putin acting from a place of stage red is something that would be more in line with the teachings on here. 

[zurew]

@Tech36363 Yes, if we are talking about an average person only, then you are right. But i don't think demonizing the internet is the solution for that. Making changes in the algorithm and also educating people better may be the better option.

Edited March 6, 2022 by zurew

[KingCrimson]

People are unwilling to educate themselves on the historical context of what is happening. They are clueless about how geopolitics works. They are not willing to self-reflect and examine their self-bias. They are not willing and/or able to question the information that is presented to them in the media. They are not willing to try to look at the situation objectively. They are not trying to understand different perspectives and the survival agendas of the parties involved. They are easy prey for the propaganda machines both in the West and in Russia.

Most people talking about this subject literally just repeat verbatim what they have read in a news article or heard on the radio. No independent thinking of any sort has occurred. This is true even for people who consider themselves educated, went to university etc. I am not surprised about this, but it is still mind-boggling to me how effectively propaganda is able to shape people's perception and opinions without them even realizing that this is happening.

This whole situation is incredibly complex and an "analysis" of "Putin is Hitler 2.0 who has gone completely off the rails and wants to reestablish the Soviet Union" is laughably shallow, naive and ignorant. To even be able to seriously hold such an opinion you have to be completely ignorant of what is actually going on. I can understand the appeal of it though. Good and evil are clearly separated, you just pick a side, engage in group-think and self-righteously shout together with the mob to bring Putin down. If you think the problem is as shallow as simply getting rid of Putin, you are completely deluded. Even if you could get rid of Putin without escalating the situation even further, what then? Another man like him will seize power, possibly someone even more authoritarian and violent than Putin.

If anything, this sort of unconsciousness and deliberate misunderstanding wiill only lead to more violence, more wars, more escalation, more money spent on weapons and military instead of schools and health care, less understanding and less less peace.

In Germany, we even have a derogatory term "Putinversteher", which translates literally to "Putin understander". Someone who understands, or tries to understand, Putin's perspective. And the people who use this term aggressively act like it's immoral in of itself even just to try to understand his perspective. How absurd is that? How can any form of diplomacy EVER work if I am not trying to understand where my opponent is coming from? How are we EVER to find peaceful solutions to conflicts of interest if we keep up the demonization and Good vs. Evil narrative?

There is a great old episode by Leo called "All criticism is untenable" which I would recommend everybody watch again and apply these lessons to the way in which they judge Putin and the situation in Ukraine as well as how they engage in debates on the issue.

 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

If the west didn’t expand NATO, none of this would have happened.

[DocWatts]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Haha

Oh the irony...

Be careful that what you consider someone's psychosis is not just your self-bias and ignorance.

Calling Putin a psychopath is so fucking lazy.

Brings to mind bad takes I routinely hear for someone like Hitler, where the analysis stops and ends at calling him Evil, without attempting to understand the socio-ideological context that motivated Hitler to do the things that he did. Jordy P had a really bad take along these lines, if I recall.

I don't understand why it's so hard to grok that people can (and often do) horrific things for sober, rational reasons. Reasons that are defined by the rules of the 'Game' that they're engaged in, which is really just another way of referencing the banality of evil.

To take another example that deserves to be more well known, it explains why someone like King Leopold II of Belgium could sleep soundly at night despite being responsible for 10 million deaths in the Congo. After all he wasn't setting out to commit a genocide bigger than the Holocaust, he just wanted to make boatloads of money under the rules of the game of Capitalism.

Edited March 6, 2022 by DocWatts

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, KingCrimson said:

People are unwilling to educate themselves on the historical context of what is happening. They are clueless about how geopolitics works. They are not willing to self-reflect and examine their self-bias. They are not willing and/or able to question the information that is presented to them in the media. They are not willing to try to look at the situation objectively. They are not trying to understand different perspectives and the survival agendas of the parties involved. They are easy prey for the propaganda machines both in the West and in Russia.

Most people talking about this subject literally just repeat verbatim what they have read in a news article or heard on the radio. No independent thinking of any sort has occurred. This is true even for people who consider themselves educated, went to university etc. I am not surprised about this, but it is still mind-boggling to me how effectively propaganda is able to shape people's perception and opinions without them even realizing that this is happening.

This whole situation is incredibly complex and an "analysis" of "Putin is Hitler 2.0 who has gone completely off the rails and wants to reestablish the Soviet Union" is laughably shallow, naive and ignorant. To even be able to seriously hold such an opinion you have to be completely ignorant of what is actually going on. I can understand the appeal of it though. Good and evil are clearly separated, you just pick a side, engage in group-think and self-righteously shout together with the mob to bring Putin down. If you think the problem is as shallow as simply getting rid of Putin, you are completely deluded. Even if you could get rid of Putin without escalating the situation even further, what then? Another man like him will seize power, possibly someone even more authoritarian and violent than Putin.

If anything, this sort of unconsciousness and deliberate misunderstanding wiill only lead to more violence, more wars, more escalation, more money spent on weapons and military instead of schools and health care, less understanding and less less peace.

In Germany, we even have a derogatory term "Putinversteher", which translates literally to "Putin understander". Someone who understands, or tries to understand, Putin's perspective. And the people who use this term aggressively act like it's immoral in of itself even just to try to understand his perspective. How absurd is that? How can any form of diplomacy EVER work if I am not trying to understand where my opponent is coming from? How are we EVER to find peaceful solutions to conflicts of interest if we keep up the demonization and Good vs. Evil narrative?

There is a great old episode by Leo called "All criticism is untenable" which I would recommend everybody watch again and apply these lessons to the way in which they judge Putin and the situation in Ukraine as well as how they engage in debates on the issue.

 

Bro, your comment is literally full of criticism lmao

[KingCrimson]

55 minutes ago, Ulax said:

Bro, your comment is literally full of criticism lmao

Obviously. What's your point? Did you even watch the video in its entirety? 

[Loba]

@Ulax I know, right?  Talk about a soap box...

[Loba]

@SQAAD I used to use that guy's advice when working through PTSD and he's legit, he gives good advice and has a very good understanding of the human mind.  I'll make notes for people on Monday when I have some free time so if they don't go through the vid, they can at least catch an idea of what he was trying to say.

I do believe that Putin has some sort of power-hungry disorder.  You can see it in his eyes; the eyes are the windows to the soul.  There's very little soul in there, it looks closed off  - he looks like someone who uses their mind too much, and doesn't feel enough.  This is however speculation, but I can read eyes pretty well.

How this war plays out will determine a lot in understanding this dude's mental state, we are all, mostly speculating at this point - but it's been a trend, you know... that people who engage in warfare are kinda nuts.  A lot of dictators ended up being mentally not very leveled out.  So it makes sense to predict that he wouldn't be the exception to the rule.  

[Lyubov]

3 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

If the west didn’t expand NATO, none of this would have happened.

If Russia wasn’t a corrupt security concern for all the smaller countries around it that willfully and freely joined NATO for their own protection none of this would have happened. 

It cuts both ways. The thing is the whole “Russia wouldn’t have invaded if NATO...” was kinda vindicated when Putin set up a narrative in his 45 minute speech where he basically wanted to rebuild the Russian empire, not even the Soviet Union. So whose to say they wouldn’t eventually have had imperialist intentions some 30 odd years later after the Soviet Union and hypothetically, NATO, ended in lockstep. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Lyubov

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Lyubov said:

If Russia wasn’t a corrupt security concern for all the smaller countries around it that willfully and freely joined NATO for their own protection none of this would have happened. 

It cuts both ways. The thing is the whole “Russia wouldn’t have invaded if NATO...” was kinda vindicated when Putin set up a narrative in his 45 minute speech where he basically wanted to rebuild the Russian empire, not even the Soviet Union. So whose to say they wouldn’t eventually have had imperialist intentions some 30 odd years later after the Soviet Union and hypothetically, NATO, ended in lockstep. 

Exactly, it's not like NATO forced these countries to join.

They wanted to join because they don't trust Russia imo

[Ulax]

10 hours ago, Loba said:

@Ulax I know, right?  Talk about a soap box...

Soap box?

[Loba]

@Ulax It is when someone stands on a soap box - American analogy - to say, "I have something to say, listen listen listen.."

Quote

A soapbox is a raised platform on which one stands to make an impromptu speech, often about a political subject. The term originates from the days when speakers would elevate themselves by standing on a wooden crate originally used for shipment of soap, or other dry goods, from a manufacturer to a retail store.

The term is also used metaphorically to describe a person engaging in often flamboyant, impromptu, or unofficial public speaking, as in the phrase, "Get off your soapbox."

 

[Ulax]

@Loba I seeee

[Loba]

@Ulax Says the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.

[Ulax]

@Loba You've lost me again lol

[Loba]

@Ulax "I see!"  Says the blind man, as he picked up his hammer and saw.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Loba

[Scholar]

On 6.3.2022 at 6:19 AM, Leo Gura said:

Just because someone has a different survival agenda than you does not make them a psychopath.

You guys are starting to disappoint me with your flagrant self-bias.

This reminds me of a rube who goes to China and calls them psychopaths for eating dogs.

I am also deeply disappointed how you engage with challenges to your view. You simply reassert what you say instead of making any effort to justify it, and you focus on making it look like you hold the truth rather than truly giving insight into your perspective and how it emerged. That to me is a very unconscious way of engaging with these topics. You seem to justify alot of your perspective by making assumptions and judgements of others. So when I ask you to justify things, you will not actually respond and give me an indepth reason for your perspective (which I now think does not even exist), but rather you will find ways to undermine someone else, without even engaging with their ideas.

That to me is lazy. When I see you engage on this forum I see someone who is fighting for truth, who is fighting to be right, rather than clarifying your perspective and attempting to understand the perspectives of others. You already assume that your position is superior, and then you argue that yours is right because clearly it is superior.

 

I think you don't like to frame things that you believe as perspective because it undermines your perceived monopoly to truth. That is why you focus on judging others rather than exploring their perspectives and clarifying yours. You dismiss others, rather than actually engaging with them and their perspectives.

Another indicator for this is that you cannot walk away and agree to disagree with someone. You don't accept that someone else might have a perspective that is valid even though it is not your own. You insist that they are wrong and then tell them the reasons for why they are wrong which are assumptions you make about, even if you can't really justify your own position. For example you will say "What you are saying is wrong because you are biased", instead of actually explaining to them why you disagree with it.

Notice the language you use. You never say "I disagree with this because of the following reasons, that is my perspective".

You say: "This is stupid, and here is why you are too stupid and biased to see that this is the case."

 

This is a very inflammatory way of going about this imo, and it shows me that you are more interested in establishing your own perspective as truth rather than simply giving us your perspective and exploring others. You want to brute force your perspective on others, by means of dismissal, character attacks and establishing your superiority.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Scholar

[SQAAD]

@Loba

17 hours ago, Loba said:

@SQAAD I used to use that guy's advice when working through PTSD and he's legit, he gives good advice and has a very good understanding of the human mind.  I'll make notes for people on Monday when I have some free time so if they don't go through the vid, they can at least catch an idea of what he was trying to say.

I do believe that Putin has some sort of power-hungry disorder.  You can see it in his eyes; the eyes are the windows to the soul.  There's very little soul in there, it looks closed off  - he looks like someone who uses their mind too much, and doesn't feel enough.  This is however speculation, but I can read eyes pretty well.

How this war plays out will determine a lot in understanding this dude's mental state, we are all, mostly speculating at this point - but it's been a trend, you know... that people who engage in warfare are kinda nuts.  A lot of dictators ended up being mentally not very leveled out.  So it makes sense to predict that he wouldn't be the exception to the rule.  

Putin is definitely Insecure af. It's very easy to tell. Just look at the surgeries on his face. He is 70 but looks 55 from all those plastic surgeries. Also he is not a very happy guy. No amount of money and power can substitute for spiritual development and lack of connection to God. 

He acts all macho and tough but he is deeply terrified of his self image crumbling into pieces. 

He is so delusional that he thinks he is the entire Russia and not just a mere small part of Russia. 

I think this war gives him a meaning in his sad existence. It fuels his ego in twisted ways. 

He has some good intentions but his intentions are based on Delusion. 

He wants to unite Ukraine with Russia but most Ukrainians find him despicable after this invasion. He is not gonna win the hearts of Ukrainians as his delusional mind initially thought. 

This whole narrative that he is saving Ukrainians from neonazis or whatever is just laughable. 

[Scholar]

Also notice how Leo will never just state his position, he will always include some invalidation of other perspectives.