"Life is a dream" Question

[machiavelli]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

You are mistaking "imaginary" here to mean "unreal". But it's the opposite. Imagination is reality.

 

@Leo Gura But when I dreamed last night all characters didnt existed when I woke up, because they were unreal. In that dream until I was dreaming I was thinking them to be real. But when I wake up I realize I was imagining other people and they never existed.

This fact, is confirmed in many NDEs. I can recall few NDEs where it was shown earth was imaginery and never existed nor people I have interacted with.

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by machiavelli

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

@Leo Gura But when I dream last night all characters didnt existed when I woke up because they were unreal. In that dream until I was dreaming I was thinking them to be real. But when I wake up I realize I was imagining other people and they never existed.

They were real, AS fictions of your mind.

Then you awoke to realize that their true nature was fictions of your mind. They are still real, AS FICTIONS OF YOUR MIND!

There is no such thing as "unreal". What you mean by "unreal" is that you misunderstood the nature of a real phenomenon. For example, when you are walking in the desert and see a mirage of a lake off in the distance, the mirage is real, but it is not a lake that you will be able to drink out of, therefore when you reach the "lake" you call it "unreal". But it isn't really unreal, it's just not what you thought it was. So you were fooled.

An illusion is still absolutely real. It just isn't what you thought it was. A hologram is still real. A rainbow is still real. A mirage is still real. Virtual reality is still real. A hallucination is still real. A dream is still real. A lie is still real.

All form will cease to appear as form if you stop dreaming. So if you define "real" as a form which stays around permanently, independent of your mind, no such form exists whatsoever. In this sense you could say that nothing is real. However, this kind of talk comes from a lack of awareness of what "real" means. "real" does not mean permanent. You are confusing reality with time.

Just because the moon ceases to exist when you turn your head away from it doesn't mean it isn't real when you are looking at it.

[Kamo]

@BipolarGrowth

1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

You can use “fabricated” in place of “imaginary” in certain cases too. It might drive the point home in a slightly different way. 

Yeah thats the exact substitute word I have been using too. It seems easier to understand since my original reference to imaginary tends to be the "inner seeing" of mental imagery.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Kamo said:

@BipolarGrowth

Yeah thats the exact substitute word I have been using too.

Fabrication is not technically as accurate.

Imagination goes deeper than fabrication.

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It seems easier to understand since my original reference to imaginary tends to be the "inner seeing" of mental imagery.

This actually makes it easy to understand. Just expand your definition of imagination to include outer seeing, or all of perception.

When you look at a chair, you are imagining it. Very simple.

It is obvious to you that when you are dreaming, everything in your dream is imaginary. There is no inner or outer in your dream. It's all imaginary.

[Kamo]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Fabrication is not technically as accurate.

Imagination goes deeper than fabrication.

This actually makes it easy to understand. Just expand your definition of imagination to include outer seeing, or all of perception.

Ok I get it, Would that mean inner seeing may simply be a lesser degree of imagination and the outer seeing be a greater degree? Greater in degree meaning how "solid" it seems? Can the inner seeing affect outer seeing? Ive seen people react to my mental imagery before and it was quite distressing? Any thoughts on this?

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Kamo said:

Would that mean inner seeing may simply be a lesser degree of imagination and the outer seeing be a greater degree? Greater in degree meaning how "solid" it seems?

Yes, exactly.

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Can the inner seeing affect outer seeing?

Yes, of course. That's what a psychedelic trip is. You think of demons and then they start to materialize on your carpet.

In one of my early mushroom trips I started to think that my room resembles an ancient Indian palace a bit, and pretty soon my room turned into an ancient Indian palace.

But normally the human mind is not powerful enough to override outer seeing, because if it was, you'd call that going insane. People who can do that are locked up in mental hospitals and given anti-psychotic drugs. Or they are mystics living in caves.

See, if you started to think that your mom was a rubber yellow duck so deeply that she turned into one, you'd think you'd gone batshit crazy. But actually, you're just employing the power of God's mind to create its own reality. Nothing crazy about it.

[Kamo]

@Leo Gura Would it be the ego mind that thinks it is "having" these mental images of thoughts? But they are just spontaneously occurring? There seems to be a reaction to want to "control" mental content sometimes. How can I let this go?

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Kamo said:

@Leo Gura Would it be the ego mind that thinks it is "having" these mental images of thoughts?

The ego IS mental images and thoughts.

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But they are just spontaneously occurring?

The source of all thoughts and mental images is Infinity or God.

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There seems to be a reaction to want to "control" mental content sometimes. How can I let this go?

Yes, that's what the ego is for, to control things.

Whatever practices help to dissolve ego. Even something like a cold shower can help with that. But ultimately awakening is necessary.

[Matthew85]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, of course. That's what a psychedelic trip is. You think of demons and then they start to materialize on your carpet.

In one of my early mushroom trips I started to think that my room resembles an ancient Indian palace a bit, and pretty soon my room turned into an ancient Indian palace.

But normally the human mind is not powerful enough to override outer seeing, because if it was, you'd call that going insane. People who can do that are locked up in mental hospitals and given anti-psychotic drugs. Or they are mystics living in caves.

See, if you started to think that your mom was a rubber yellow duck so deeply that she turned into one, you'd think you'd gone batshit crazy. But actually, you're just employing the power of God's mind to create its own reality. Nothing crazy about it.

How many layers of imagination do you estimate there are? Nothing we experience on psychedelics trips ever seems to cause a change to this reality. We always come back to exactly the same environment. Were you ever able to access a deep enough part of imagination that you were able to change something in this reality?

[Kamo]

@Leo Gura Holy Shit. Yeah I get it. I would think the sudden increase in my heart rate just now means something. I seeing exactly what your saying. So with awakening all that is dissolved? ones experience then is just pure presence and aware with little to no mental content? The mental chatter too, the inner monologue or subvocalizing is also ego?

 

[Kamo]

@Leo Gura

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, exactly.

Yes, of course. That's what a psychedelic trip is. You think of demons and then they start to materialize on your carpet.

In one of my early mushroom trips I started to think that my room resembles an ancient Indian palace a bit, and pretty soon my room turned into an ancient Indian palace.

But normally the human mind is not powerful enough to override outer seeing, because if it was, you'd call that going insane. People who can do that are locked up in mental hospitals and given anti-psychotic drugs. Or they are mystics living in caves.

See, if you started to think that your mom was a rubber yellow duck so deeply that she turned into one, you'd think you'd gone batshit crazy. But actually, you're just employing the power of God's mind to create its own reality. Nothing crazy about it.

Yeah I experienced something similar on 5-Me0. You responded to my question about it awhile back mentioning the facets I experienced. "Infinite Imaginations and God Realization. So the reference to that experience has helped me understand this alot. Would you say the Mystics arent even in that cave at all. They are occupying their own constructed heaven perhaps? 

[WokeBloke]

@Leo Gura Can you define imagination? I feel like I may have a different definition than you.

[BipolarGrowth]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Fabrication is not technically as accurate.

Imagination goes deeper than fabrication.

Can you describe some of the differences between using fabrication vs. imagination in this context? 
 

To me, they seem to be rather interchangeable although contain subtle differences. 

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Matthew85 said:

How many layers of imagination do you estimate there are?

Mostly just two: the inner world of your human mind and the outer world which is perception or what scientists call physical reality.

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Nothing we experience on psychedelics trips ever seems to cause a change to this reality. We always come back to exactly the same environment. Were you ever able to access a deep enough part of imagination that you were able to change something in this reality?

"This reality" has a certain flow to it that is perfect as it is and doesn't need to be fucked with. That's what you realize when you become very conscious.

21 minutes ago, Kamo said:

@Leo Gura So with awakening all that is dissolved? ones experience then is just pure presence and aware with little to no mental content? The mental chatter too, the inner monologue or subvocalizing is also ego?

No, awakening does not have to dissolve any mental content or chatter. You can be awake and still think or daydream.

13 minutes ago, Kamo said:

@Leo Gura

 Would you say the Mystics arent even in that cave at all. They are occupying their own constructed heaven perhaps? 

I would say you are imagining mystics occupying constructed heavens

13 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

@Leo Gura Can you define imagination? I feel like I may have a different definition than you.

It can't really be defined because it is absolute and total so there is no alternative against which it can be compared. All definitions are themselves generated by imagination, so you cannot use a definition to grasp imagination or the same reason that you cannot use your hand to grasp itself.

But you have an intuitive sense of what imagination is. This is pretty good. Now just expand that to encompass the entire physical domain, the entire domain of your perceptions. Stop limiting imagination to something that only happening within your head. Start seeing physical objects are imaginary.

12 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Can you describe some of the differences between using fabrication vs. imagination in this context?

To me, they seem to be rather interchangeable although contain subtle differences. 

Well... of course all words are relative and you can define them however you like.

Fabrication to me is a more narrow term which implies that you are constructing something in the mental realm. Like fabricating a story. I would say that your life story is a fabrication. But I would not say the chair you are sitting on is a fabrication. Of course you could stretch the notion of fabrication to include even chairs I guess. If you stretched it to include all things, then it would become identical to my use of imagination.

Basically, the say something is imaginary is to say that it is held in the mind. And in this case everything is Mind. The entire Universe is held within God's Mind, therefore it is imaginary.

[Kamo]

1 minute ago, WokeBloke said:

@Leo Gura Can you define imagination? I feel like I may have a different definition than you.

@WokeBloke If you refer to the dialog between myself and Leo. I questioned the inner seeing of mental imagery being imagination. So to remove a linguistic understanding of it, since our definitions can become misinterpreted from language, just use your direct observation of it. So for example right now, imagine a baseball. You can see that image in your mind, now what Leo is saying is to expand your definition of what that phenomena means to you to include outer seeing and all of perception as well. The difference being degrees or "solidity" of Imagination.

[Inliytened1]

3 hours ago, machiavelli said:

@Inliytened1 So you mean I am only thing that exist in entire universe that is imagining my parents, friends, and every sentient being? Just like a dream?

 

Indeed.  There is only one Mind.  Yours.  Nothing can exist outside of this Mind, You (your mind and you are the same - you are Infinite Mind).  But nothing can exist outside your Mind because you are Infinite.   As Leo pointed out this doesn't mean they aren't "real" in the sense that everything is real bexause Mind and Reality are one thing.  That is a duality that you can collapse.  It just means they cannot actually exist outside or separate from you.  They can appear separate or outside of you,  God (you) does this via illusion.  The illusion is done by creating the appearance of limitation or finitude by dialing down its level of consciousness.  But there are much higher states of consciousness that you have yet to access.  

[Kamo]

@Leo Gura So Awakening distilled down to its simplest understanding would be that you realize how everything is imagination. Personally I feel i have experiential understanding of this, due to my psychedelic use, how ever the quality of how I feel doesn't match up to how you describe in your video "What does Awakening feel like?" But it DID feel that way after I had 5Me0 HLC version. It didn't completely reconstruct a new reality before my eyes like smoking freebase did, but it did make my mind Crystal Clear, super pleasant mood. Perception was like on High Definition, It feel AWAKE AF but not like in the sense as how stimulants make you feel awake. What your saying is this state I described can become Ones new baseline of experience? That would be Awakening? 

[WokeBloke]

@Leo Gura How can you be sure there is no world outside the body (but within consciousness) that you are perceiving with the body? I mean from my point of view both you and I are in different parts of the world and communicating which suggests there is a world outside our perception but within our consciousness.

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Kamo said:

@Leo Gura how ever the quality of how I feel doesn't match up to how you describe in your video "What does Awakening feel like?" But it DID feel that way after I had 5Me0 HLC version.

Well, how you feel is distinct from awakening itself. Getting your feelings right might require a lot of additional work.

How you feel is a complicate issue.

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 What your saying is this state I described can become Ones new baseline of experience? That would be Awakening? 

Awakening is that state itself, regardless of how long it lasts.

It is still awakening whether it becomes your baseline or not.

11 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

@Leo Gura How can you be sure there is no world outside the body (but within consciousness) that you are perceiving with the body? I mean from my point of view both you and I are in different parts of the world and communicating which suggests there is a world outside our perception but within our consciousness.

You can become infinitely conscious to the point where nothing is hidden from your consciousness any more. Your consciousness becomes absolute.

Since you are consciousness you should be able to be conscious of everything contained inside you. And since consciousness is infinite, there cannot be anything outside you. Since it is unlimited, consciousness must be able to fully comprehend itself. This is just to say that God is omniscient.

[WokeBloke]

@Leo Gura If this were true then you should be able to say what is on my desk. Otherwise it's just a belief. You are only conscious of the things that you perceive. You know of nothing outside of your perception.