The source of creation cannot be understood anyway...

[RMQualtrough]

Intelligence is a creation. Understanding is a creation. Control is a creation. The constant undulations of dualities appearing and subsequently collapsing cannot be understood because understanding is, of course, a duality. It's made of thought which appears. Understanding only happens in the presence of something limited appearing. Yes even on 5-MeO-DMT etc when people describe white void. White is limited.

Even seeing black, the black has to be NOT blue, NOT red, in order to appear as black. The correct way to see infinity is to be completely blind... To hear infinity, deaf. Etc.

Because all something is finite.

To "become" infinity, even though you technically are just like random heroin junkies are, would be to become nothing. Because only nothing is not finite or limited in form...

Probably the blackouts or whiteouts on DMT and 5-MeO-DMT respectively, are a true complete merge with infinity, rather than the trips that are recalled. When tripping that hard, it is like toeing the event horizon of a black hole, we are sort of exploring it but if entered, we cease to exist. Deep sleep and anaesthesia are more "nondual" than any trip. But obviously the human ego doesn't see value in that (or in the psychedelic blackouts) because it wants to know something.

The human desire for knowledge is SO unbelievably strong, that even when people are STABBED OR SHOT and dying, it's common for them to say "why?" Even when dying the human desires understanding over almost anything else...

[hyruga]

Dolly had no father.

Dolly was born on 5 July 1996 and had three mothers: one provided the egg, another the DNA, and a third carried the cloned embryo to term.[10] She was created using the technique of somatic cell nuclear transfer, where the cell nucleus from an adult cell is transferred into an unfertilized oocyte (developing egg cell) that has had its cell nucleus removed.

[BipolarGrowth]

Cessation felt for me much like being on the event horizon of a black hole sucking in all of existence/reality/Gawd into it. As amazing and indescribable the event horizon was, it was not nearly as incredible as the cessation of experience.

On a number of trips, I’ve reached black out type stuff if the dose is a bit high. It also happens at times that things are so ridiculously powerful that you cannot really remember even what happened in the past minute, 30 seconds, 10 seconds, even 1 second at times. These types of situations do have a feeling of being more profound than many amazing trip  or meditation stories that I can recall, but there is a certain hollowness with comes with the fact that recall/memory may be essentially impossible or completely impossible.  

Edited March 3, 2022 by BipolarGrowth

[softlyblossoming]

10 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Cessation felt for me much like being on the event horizon of a black hole sucking in all of existence/reality/Gawd into it. As amazing and indescribable the event horizon was, it was not nearly as incredible as the cessation of experience.

On a number of trips, I’ve reached black out type stuff if the dose is a bit high. It also happens at times that things are so ridiculously powerful that you cannot really remember even what happened in the past minute, 30 seconds, 10 seconds, even 1 second at times. These types of situations do have a feeling of being more profound than many amazing trip  or meditation stories that I can recall, but there is a certain hollowness with comes with the fact that recall/memory may be essentially impossible or completely impossible.  

@BipolarGrowth Hi, Brandon. Do you think those trips could really have been experiences of nirodha-samāpatti, since the memory cycle got backsliced? I've heard that, in the 9th state dhyāna, practitioners report being unable to remember what happened for the last several seconds (and sometimes even minutes in the case of a very long cessation of the perception of feeling) just after entering and before exiting the attainment. Not to mention you describe both the trips and your cessations as black hole experiences. It just seems potentially suspicious to me as I've also heard cessations described, phenomenologically at least, to bear striking resemblance to nirodha-samāpatti, with the prime suspected differentiator being the duration of the absorption (or, in other words, the length of the memory gap). I'd love to get your feedback on this.

Btw, big fan of the YouTube videos, looking forward to your next trip report story time with Chester on your lap. Not to impinge on your creative process or anything of that nature, but I was wondering if perhaps you could talk a bit about the black holes? I'm sure this would interest some other viewers as well. Thanks 

[softlyblossoming]

13 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

The human desire for knowledge is SO unbelievably strong, that even when people are STABBED OR SHOT and dying, it's common for them to say "why?" Even when dying the human desires understanding over almost anything else...

@RMQualtrough Nice post. This last line really sent it home. I think there's no creator (sub-vision reality) and it's "just this". Reading your words leads me to suspect that the human desire for knowledge is the source of it's subversiveness and inability to recognise the truth that all that is is "just this"; i.e., nothing but what appears to be. What do you think about this? Could the creator Itself be an illusionist/magician? Somehow, I feel like this improves the probahood of Leo's 'miracle awakening' (an old blog video) being correct, as existence being all there is would then also have to be the work of a mage.

Thanks 

[BipolarGrowth]

1 hour ago, softlyblossoming said:

@BipolarGrowth Hi, Brandon. Do you think those trips could really have been experiences of nirodha-samāpatti, since the memory cycle got backsliced? I've heard that, in the 9th state dhyāna, practitioners report being unable to remember what happened for the last several seconds (and sometimes even minutes in the case of a very long cessation of the perception of feeling) just after entering and before exiting the attainment. Not to mention you describe both the trips and your cessations as black hole experiences. It just seems potentially suspicious to me as I've also heard cessations described, phenomenologically at least, to bear striking resemblance to nirodha-samāpatti, with the prime suspected differentiator being the duration of the absorption (or, in other words, the length of the memory gap). I'd love to get your feedback on this.

Btw, big fan of the YouTube videos, looking forward to your next trip report story time with Chester on your lap. Not to impinge on your creative process or anything of that nature, but I was wondering if perhaps you could talk a bit about the black holes? I'm sure this would interest some other viewers as well. Thanks 

NS is typically defined as being something that occurs from going through the eight jhanas in order first, so if we’re to use that definition which is commonly used, it’s not NS. 
 

The trip experiences I described as “black out” rather than “black hole” which mean two very different things to me, but I can see how they sounded very similar. Black out, in the way I use it, is also different from having trouble recalling things very recent (less than a minute), so I’m talking about essentially three types of things here.
 

Cessation has an abrupt entrance and exit from the “no experience” “state”. I have had some things happen where things weren’t as noticeable, and I wondered if cessation had occurred although it wasn’t as clear as the most notable times it’s happened to me. 

 

Black out is essentially a less abrupt entrance into the loss of experience in the typical timeline of things and a less abrupt exit from it. 
 

The cases of being unable to recall very recent events came mostly from so much going on to such a high intensity that you’re recalling like 0.1-1% of what happened, so you know that you were conscious although it’s impossible to really access what happened pretty much at all through memory. 
 

Phenomenologically, NS = cessation. It’s only the context of how that “state” occurs that makes it one or the other from what I’ve gathered. NS also has the feature of being more predictable in some cases than cessation. Another thing with NS vs. cessation is that I typically see cessations described as very short while NS seems to have more of an idea of longer duration associated with it although there is no sense of duration in NS or cessation apart from how experience presents itself on the two sides of NS or cessation. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by BipolarGrowth

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, softlyblossoming said:

@RMQualtrough Nice post. This last line really sent it home. I think there's no creator (sub-vision reality) and it's "just this". Reading your words leads me to suspect that the human desire for knowledge is the source of it's subversiveness and inability to recognise the truth that all that is is "just this"; i.e., nothing but what appears to be. What do you think about this? Could the creator Itself be an illusionist/magician? Somehow, I feel like this improves the probahood of Leo's 'miracle awakening' (an old blog video) being correct, as existence being all there is would then also have to be the work of a mage.

Thanks 

Essentially I think you can recognize being it, but never step outside of that undulation to observe it in totality.

I think I posted this because I don't enjoy the Actualized.org lingo of assigning what sounds like control to the self. E.g. 'you "imagined" your parents' etc. I don't like that, it makes it sound like a decision. Infinite intelligence, omnipotence, whatever is said is going to be a product of it. I don't think it has control itself, rather control would have to be a product of it.

The most frightening panic attacks on trips have often been when the borders vanish in ALL directions. What is so intensely frightening is that there is absolutely nowhere to grab. You can't understand it, you can't control it, because wherever you try to grab hold of something, it's just not there. You can reach endlessly in any direction for some sort of border you can grip onto and thus control, and never find one. EVER. Because there ISN'T one. And because of that lack of anywhere to grip, your mind goes completely psychotic. A human mind NEEDS duality to function. It NEEDS a border to orient itself with and something it can grab and manipulate.

I had many trips where consciousness became dimensionless. There were a few very weird like that though, and I'd be screaming and crying throughout.

I don't think there is a creatOR... Just is-ness... I don't think there's a sentient being deciding to imagine the universe.

[softlyblossoming]

@BipolarGrowth Thanks again, man. Your reply pointed out a tonne about NS and cessation I didn't know about. That was awesome. Nice breakdown.

[softlyblossoming]

32 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

The most frightening panic attacks on trips have often been when the borders vanish in ALL directions. What is so intensely frightening is that there is absolutely nowhere to grab. You can't understand it, you can't control it, because wherever you try to grab hold of something, it's just not there. You can reach endlessly in any direction for some sort of border you can grip onto and thus control, and never find one. EVER. Because there ISN'T one. And because of that lack of anywhere to grip, your mind goes completely psychotic. It NEEDS a border to orient itself with and something it can grab and manipulate.

@RMQualtrough Yoooo! That description was visceral for me. The last sentence hit me like "fucckkkkk". Yeah, it's like the human mind has like this need to make the inunderstandable understandable, so we make up a whole bunch of shit about a creator and a divine will, when it's just like shit happening by straight up magic - magic in the sense that it's not possible for the mind to grok what's actually going on, so reality appears as magic from the mind's limited POV, I mean - reminds me of when Leo said 'you can't understand the infinite with the finite'. Yo, that's crazy man. Appreciate this reply big time, gave me mad food for thought. Feel like I'm tripping just reading you describing your trip, crazy 

32 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

I don't think there is a creatOR... Just is-ness... I don't think there's a sentient being deciding to imagine the universe.

Yh, I feel inclined to agree. Do you think Leo just made the God-Realization up so he could trick himself into thinking his mind understands itself completely when that's not possible, or do you think it's possible AKA guarunteed for real (because anything possible must be true or it's not possible)?

Edited March 4, 2022 by softlyblossoming
guarunteed

[michaelcycle00]

32 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

I don't like that, it makes it sound like a decision. Infinite intelligence, omnipotence, whatever is said is going to be a product of it. I don't think it has control itself, rather control would have to be a product of it.

 

This makes me quiver. I like your post because it really shows that "God" or "Infinity" is so much more than we think. There is probably an infinitude of other types of existence that could occur or are occurring that we can't even conceive as humans. However, and now referring to what I quoted you on here, this is pretty scary to me and I've thought about it. How God is probably at its own mercy... the whole "if it's all-powerful then he cannot be all good" thing where stuff just happens. Dreams, creation, whatever. It just is for some reason, and there's no reason not to think next time it'll be something much worse because it can be and so will be (assuming this is how it works), but yeah, an omnipotent being who has no control and everything it does is done to itself (us) cannot be good. Add no time to this and may as well call it infinite suffering. And done by us to us which is the biggest joke of them all. 

But then again, if it's one and there's nothing outside of it, then who tf is running the show? Why would properties like control or the lack of it emerge and just will themselves into existence (which is itself) for no reason at all? We're at a dead-end here, aren't we?

[Adamq8]

How do you account for order and structure and intelligibility in your worldview?

 

 

[RMQualtrough]

5 minutes ago, softlyblossoming said:

@RMQualtrough Do you think Leo just made the God-Realization up so he could trick himself into thinking his mind understands itself completely when that's not possible, or do you think it's possible AKA guarunteed for real (because anything possible must be true or it's not possible)?

I don't think he made it up, I think I know what he went through which was total ego death. I think he calls it God because it contains sentience (we are sentient, we are it).

He does not know the totality of mind. If he did, he could tell you what your bedroom looks like. Leo is especially obsessed with understanding, he went to college for engineering at one point and IIRC graduated uni with a philosophy degree, that's how he works.

But when ANYONE comes down from a trip, or even during a trip, the moment thought starts, interpretations tend to creep in. Thus Leo himself has gone down rabbitholes of attempting telekinesis etc., because he has tried to interpret something.

I am always doing this also. With very serious trips you never really come back because the mind will forever want to understand and process what happened to it. But it can't...

I did recognize myself as empty/nothing. Definitively. But this was a recognition taking place within the appearance of the finite (I was aware of whatever mad patterns and jester things I was hallucinating at that time)... I have actually blacked out on DMT. And been under general anaesthetic. I suspect that is the most intimate we as characters can get with "it", yet we get absolutely nothing from these experiences because there isn't an experience. We have to be on the event horizon to actually take something away from it, rather than being totally in it.

[RMQualtrough]

9 minutes ago, michaelcycle00 said:

God is probably at its own mercy...

This is the exact sort of sensation I got in the specific trips described where I would be screaming, crying, etc. It was like being God at the mercy of its own chaotic infinite nature.

I've used hallucinogens, and especially DMT, A LOTTTT. After that trip I put it away, and that time I genuinely mean I put it away forever. I will never touch psychedelics again.

Although I don't think there is control and I viscerally encountered something where I could never reach a border, what it felt like when I put this shit away (still tripping) knowing for sure I would never touch it again, is like God shaking his own hand in agreement to never speak of or recognize it again. Like two people who just killed someone. Lol. It felt like a secrecy pact...

[RMQualtrough]

@Adamq8 Without any issue, these things are aspects of it. Is "God" all knowing? Well yes because any knowing that ever happens takes place in it. Sentient and intelligent? Well we are sentient, and we are it, so yes. It will tick any box for God as far as I can tell, as any property that exists IS it.

But this is the thing, that all of that is happening within itself. Order, intelligence, understanding, is all taking place within it in some form of finitude. There's nothing outside ALL the undulations of infinity which can observe or control it. If there was something outside, that would become the new infinity. And so on and so on forever. The total infinity does not have any border. Borders only exist where there is finitude of some sort. There's no such thing as outside of it (and also thus no such thing as inside, because inside only exists in relation to outside).

[softlyblossoming]

@RMQualtrough Thank you. You are incredibly open-minded and wise. Please for give my single-minded and one-sided interpretations. My monkey mind was wild and heart weak when I wrote my prior comments. May you have a pleasant weekend.

[gettoefl]

nothing can be understood in the absolute ... there is manifest and there is unmanifest and an ever ongoing dance from one to the other

[softlyblossoming]

4 hours ago, gettoefl said:

nothing can be understood in the absolute ... there is manifest and there is unmanifest and an ever ongoing dance from one to the other

@gettoefl How can it dance if it's unmanifested (not here). I think it's just the manifest that would be dancing, but isn't because time isn't real, so really it's just the manifest staying the same. I would love if you could explain to me and sorry for being kinda dumb as a brick, but I don't get it .

[gettoefl]

3 hours ago, softlyblossoming said:

@gettoefl How can it dance if it's unmanifested (not here). I think it's just the manifest that would be dancing, but isn't because time isn't real, so really it's just the manifest staying the same. I would love if you could explain to me and sorry for being kinda dumb as a brick, but I don't get it .

let me allow Bernadette Roberts to interject

[WelcometoReality]

On 2022-03-03 at 7:48 PM, RMQualtrough said:

Probably the blackouts or whiteouts on DMT and 5-MeO-DMT respectively, are a true complete merge with infinity, rather than the trips that are recalled. When tripping that hard, it is like toeing the event horizon of a black hole, we are sort of exploring it but if entered, we cease to exist. Deep sleep and anaesthesia are more "nondual" than any trip. But obviously the human ego doesn't see value in that (or in the psychedelic blackouts) because it wants to know something.

??

[gettoefl]

people always offended but christ is just a metaphor

for the unmanifest manifesting the manifest

and then along came some bloke called jesus who came and showed as how to accomplish the reverse

the manifest manifesting the unmanifest

and what is the path he demonstrated?

bad self to good self (no more duality) to no self (no more you) to all self (all be god)