Nato's side about the Russia-Nato relationship

[zurew]

Nato try to debunk some claims that came from Russia, of course this is not objective, but this is one side: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm#c102

[Scholar]

The idea that Russia is being threatened by NATO expansion, which happened in response to Russia's invasion of Georgia and annexation of Crimea, is laughable. Not only did he provoke the expansion by giving any rational european country a reason to join it and increase it's defensive capabilities, but he then proceeded to call it aggression even though it was a defensive action.

It is the case that Ukraine never even was likely to join NATO, for many reasons including that countries with ongoing border-disputes cannot join NATO. But outside of that, any sovereign nation has the right to join a defensive pact, especially after seeing how Russia has been acting in the past two decades.

 

Putin is trying to gaslight the West and hope his misinformation campaign sticks, and sadly it is working very well. It's like he is an abusive partner who then beats his wife for buying pepper spray. Putin's action have proven that Ukraine should have never given up it's nuclear arsenal, and that NATO is more relevant than it ever was before. The only reason he is invading Ukraine is because he wants to reestablish the old empire, and he knew that if he would not do soon, that opportunity might slip away forever.

 

Sure, the West is biased here, but the West comes not even close to the level of corruption and deceit that Russia is currently displaying.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Scholar

[zurew]

@Scholar I agree with you on that there is a lot of Russian misinformation, and of course a lot of intentional misleading about the current events. However, in my opinion, this war could have been prevented, if the Nato would have made an agreement about the following: If Russia wants to invade Ukraine ,Ukraine will be automatically added to the Nato, but if Russia doesn't invade, then Ukraine will  never be added to the Nato . This might be really harsh on Ukraine, but if our goal is to prevent a war, then we should do everything we have, to prevent it.

 

Also when we know that we are dealing with a person ,who we know is likely to do insane things, then we should play the geopolitical games according to that. But of course, every country has its own incentives, and im not naive about that, and i won't expect any country or anyone to sacrifice a lot just for the global greater good, but i think a little bit more effort could have been added to try to solve this problem.

 

Also what I don't really understand is that, why almost every country giving weapons for Ukraine, because in my opinion its paradoxically has negative effects on Ukraine, because the war will be longer and longer, more civil people will die. In my opinion Putin is in a position now, where he won't give this war up even if he lose a lot more money and prestige and geopolitical relationships, he sort of burned his bridges with almost everyone, and now he has almost nothing more to lose, so he won't stop invading Ukraine.  I think Ukraine should have gave up and let the Russians in, of course its easy to say because im not Ukranian, but if the goal is to prevent the most amount of deaths then that would have been a solution for that.

 

I don't see a scenario where Putin will just randomly give up his invading, from his point of view he just lose more things if he stops. So the question is what's the best questions to ask if you are the leader of Ukraine, what's more important, and what will you sacrifice for those goals.

[Scholar]

2 hours ago, zurew said:

@Scholar I agree with you on that there is a lot of Russian misinformation, and of course a lot of intentional misleading about the current events. However, in my opinion, this war could have been prevented, if the Nato would have made an agreement about the following: If Russia wants to invade Ukraine ,Ukraine will be automatically added to the Nato, but if Russia doesn't invade, then Ukraine will  never be added to the Nato . This might be really harsh on Ukraine, but if our goal is to prevent a war, then we should do everything we have, to prevent it.

 

Also when we know that we are dealing with a person ,who we know is likely to do insane things, then we should play the geopolitical games according to that. But of course, every country has its own incentives, and im not naive about that, and i won't expect any country or anyone to sacrifice a lot just for the global greater good, but i think a little bit more effort could have been added to try to solve this problem.

 

Also what I don't really understand is that, why almost every country giving weapons for Ukraine, because in my opinion its paradoxically has negative effects on Ukraine, because the war will be longer and longer, more civil people will die. In my opinion Putin is in a position now, where he won't give this war up even if he lose a lot more money and prestige and geopolitical relationships, he sort of burned his bridges with almost everyone, and now he has almost nothing more to lose, so he won't stop invading Ukraine.  I think Ukraine should have gave up and let the Russians in, of course its easy to say because im not Ukranian, but if the goal is to prevent the most amount of deaths then that would have been a solution for that.

 

I don't see a scenario where Putin will just randomly give up his invading, from his point of view he just lose more things if he stops. So the question is what's the best questions to ask if you are the leader of Ukraine, what's more important, and what will you sacrifice for those goals.

In the end I think Putin would have done anything in his power to grab as much land as possible.

To say a country joins NATO once it is attacked pretty much just makes it part of NATO, because that is the entire idea of NATO, it is a defensive alliance. The reason why Putin didn't want Ukraine to join NATO is because he wanted to grab it, and he knew he wouldn't ever be able to grab it once it was part of NATO. I don't think this could have been prevented, Putin created the conflict, in the end that is outside of the influence of NATO.

[Scholar]

 

 

[zurew]

@Scholar Thanks, i will watch it in a minute. Its not easy to makes sense of this situation. I don't know if you have ever heard about this source:https://www.improvethenews.org. This site trying to show you the facts about a particular topic, and also the different kind of narratives. I don't know how reliable it is, but i stumpled upon it a few days ago, and it seems really good to me. It can save some time to use it, and you can mindfully search articles about certain kind of news. 

[Blackhawk]

8 hours ago, zurew said:

I think Ukraine should have gave up and let the Russians in, of course its easy to say because im not Ukranian, but if the goal is to prevent the most amount of deaths then that would have been a solution for that.

So let's let Putin take the entire planet then. And then Russia can rename earth to "Russia".

[tsuki]

6 hours ago, Scholar said:

 

 

@Scholar That was a good material. Thank you for sharing. I'll ponder it some more and maybe post my thoughts later.

[BlueOak]

Thank you. Next up please. Ukraines perspective and finally the perspectives of Eastern Europe, China, India etc. A really indepth look at it if possible.

I've benefited greatly from watching the Russian perspective, because I didn't have it, but i've felt that's been what's highlighed in the forum. I would like to see other perspectives on this.

[zurew]

@Blackhawk Not let Russia take the entire planet, but from Ukraine's point of view can you list all the benefits fighting Russia back right now? Becuase as far as i can see, Putin won't take down his weapons and by the time passing will only get more mad and insane and won't ever stop his indavding. So in my opinion from Ukraine's pov its an unwinnable war right now, and the more defensiveness will kill more people only. So I will ask you again what is the benefit for Ukraine to fight an unwinnable war against Russia?

 

Btw no one will let Russia take the entire planet, especially he can't take NATO countries, because he don't want a nuclear war. But if we pressure him too much and if the Ukraine war get longer and longer, Putin will be more and more pressured to the everything he can to take Ukraine without thinking less and less about civilian safety.

[zurew]

@Knowledge Hoarder Now thats a valid point, but i don't think that Putin will stop until he can put somone on Volodymyr Zelenskyy's place. After that there will be potential inner wars in Ukraine to try to break out from the oppression, however its hard to break out from oppression if most people will already be dead due to the resistance they are forced into right now.

Right now these civilians have no choice but to fight back Russia. Maybe you are right and Putin will stop if he has much more losses, but what i think is that this way, just more people will die and Putin will take over anyway.  If he can't take over, my concern is that he will be pushed even more to start WW3 , cause if he can't take over Ukraine, from his pov he did this all for nothing and lost a lot of power over it (military,economy,politcal).

What does a Russian man in power do if he has nothing else to lose? Thats my concern right now.

Its a hard balancing between not forcing Putin too much into to a corner, and at the same time show him that what he is doing right now is not good and have a lot of consequences.

[tsuki]

3 hours ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

By inflicting large casualities to Russians - and waging guerilla warfare during occupation, turning Ukraine into another Afghanistan. Russians will probably be forced to abandon Ukraine sooner or later - the more casualities they suffer, the shorter will occupation last, in my opinion.

To drown them in their own blood, that's the purphose of resisting.

Imagine what kind of damage that would cause to the country. 

[BlueOak]

1 hour ago, tsuki said:

Imagine what kind of damage that would cause to the country. 

What you are missing Tskui is unless a large amount of people living in Ukraine no longer live there, or the Russia government itself adapts to them, this damage will happen anyway.

Ukraine has 44 million people, Russia has 145 Million. The weight of that population being governed will inevitably lead to adaptation or instability in the government that tries to control it. Governments have to reflect what the population expect and accept. 

[Carl-Richard]

Suspiciously aggressive move for a defensive alliance to go for the "claim-fact" format 

[zurew]

@Carl-Richard Yeah for sure , everything and every source has to be taken critically.

[Scholar]

4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Suspiciously aggressive move for a defensive alliance to go for the "claim-fact" format 

Ironically it is a purely defensive move in response to the misinformation floating around and the false claims made by the Kremlin-Gremlin.

 

If you don't trust them, verify the claims yourself.

[Epikur]

 

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, Epikur said:

 

You listen to BadEmpanada?

[Epikur]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

You listen to BadEmpanada?

Normally not but lately he has some good takes.