Leo featured in suicide cult article

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, mandyjw said:

 

You have five senses, you know this, yes?

You directly experience separate senses? Yes, or no? Without thinking, right now, do you have separate senses?

Are you aware, right now?

If you are aware does it seem that when thinking, that awareness (not separate) is filtered through 5 separate senses? 

Mind is a filter. 

Do not mistake the filter for the water. Don't mistake the slide on the projector for the light. The projection and the projector are only light. The slide is not. 

You cannot KNOW yourself, you are the Knowing itself. Once misunderstanding (there are 5 senses and a separate me) is seen to be misunderstanding that is it. It cannot be called knowing or understanding, because it is not an "it", YOU are Aware. 

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with that but we can also be in the relative and have perspectives.  I think that's what @zurew was pointing out. We need to be flexible and shift between the relative and absolute.  From the relative, we have a POV and it appears that we are these humans interacting on a forum

 

[mandyjw]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Do you think, that what you say is not just a perspective? Because , so far what i have seen about these enlightenment arugments, is that there is so much disagreement between person and person, that it suggest, that there is much more place for not knowing compared to knowing.

But again, how do you arrive at the claim, about what I am. You are using the so called infinite consciousness, to derive at the conclusion that I am God. So you put more emphasis on that level of consciousness compared to the other ones. And now you can say, but at that level there is no one to have a perspective, but again, why do you want to make it out to be that it is more objective?

The level of consciousness which one use is the gatekeeper here. It basically changes everything.

Because we do not actually HAVE perspectives, but think we do, we disagree. Makes sense, right? We are actually in disagreement with our Selves. 

Consciousness is the ever open gate. The level of consciousness is not a gatekeeper.  Consciousness first, and then you may have "perspective", perspective is THEN used to separate high from low and assign levels, only by separating itSelf. Go direct to Consciousness, do not pass go and do not collect $200. There's no where to even go. 

[mandyjw]

34 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

There are facets of the Absolute that can be absolutely realized. 

Realized as in "I know this" or realized that that I BE, ARE it? 

35 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Such as that reality is indeed non-dual and Infinite at the deepest level. 

non-dual and infinite has NO levels. To have levels we must separate, higher, lower. There is no deepest or highest level. 

35 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

But it doesn't make someone special to be God realized.  

It doesn't make someone anything at all. What you think yourself to be is the house upon the sand. Doesn't the term "God realized" as it is used in this community imply special knowledge? Again, what does "realize" really mean? Is realize knowledge a separate someone possesses? Or is realize, real eyes, Awareness just what you Are? 

[mandyjw]

56 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

You could say: God has infinite ability to manipulate. all reality is god and is being infinitely manipulated by itself

God does not "have", he does not possess. There are no hands of God to grasp, or manipulate what is first grasped, which is exactly why "He's got the whole world in his hands".

"Look! No hands, Mom! " 

[zurew]

11 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

The level of consciousness is not a gatekeeper.

It is though. There is something that is either seperate or not, that tries to figure itself out. From this human pov we call it 'changing its own states'. We can say other things but that describes it fair imo. This thing can change itself to be aware of different kind of things.

If i use your position, then i can say, that everything that zurew said above is just false, because his relative pov about this problem is coming from the finite self, and not from the infinite self. The infinite self (which is exactly true compared to the finite self) realises its True nature. Everything that a relative self can do or make sense of is either false or just partially true. There is no other, there is no separation , its just Isness. No manipulation, no doing because it assumes a doer, or a manipulator. When you realise that you are absolute, there will be no more questions, because there is no one that could ask those questions. But with all that said, for example if a question pops up that 'is there a reality out there?' . This question assumes a lot in an of itself, but it can be investigated with infinite number of different kind of tools ,and states of consciousness, and then at the end of the day you can say that yours is the right one, and maybe you will be right, but maybe you won't (again here is an assumption that there are others, I think making different kind of foundational assumption can create different kind of paths to explore, without assuming, that there is only one True way).

Now, in my opinion, that above is cool and all, but Reality or God can be investigated from infinite different kind of states of consciousness, and not just that, but it can be investigated with different kind of epistemic tools. For me, every tool is just a tool and neither of them holds more speciality compare to the other ones. Of course again it could be said, you just say that only, because you think you are this finite self and that you think there is a seperate investigator. I know the very need to explore God from more perspectives and with different tools can be questioned and could be called problematic in  an of itself, but right now, i am (limited ego talking here) holding this position.

[Inliytened1]

@AdeptusPsychonautica if you are referring to this quote by Leo:

"I can help you to discover that you are God. When you do realize that you are God, this will instantaneously solve every single problem in your life, not only that but it will heal you, it will heal you of every disease and problem that you have"

As I pointed out before enlightenment does not permanently heal you of any illnesses you had previously.  While in a state of God Consciousness you will not have any ailments.   But on returning to your ego those illnesses may persist.  It does give you access to Infinite inteligence and can help with clearing up problems in your life.  

If he clarified this already then we can put this to rest.  I was more interested in your other criticism.  I think Leo is going to be making some changes and putting the deeper content behind a pay wall.  But we make it very clear here that spirituality is dangerous- and we have tons of disclaimers. If people want to get into spirituality we do tell them here that it is serious stuff and to know what they are getting themselves into.   And it's also why Leo is shutting down the solipsism threads because most people are not ready for this when they first step into spirituality.  They have to start at the basic level.

[mandyjw]

24 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

I think Leo is going to be making some changes and putting the deeper content behind a pay wall.  

Do you see how the idea of levels and "deeper" is a manipulation to make people think and feel as if they do not know something that Leo does know, and to want to pay money for special access to it. When IT is already, them? 

Do you see how having videos feeding people into self actualization and pick up, etc, are marketed to people who are  feeling as if they are not enough somehow, the same people who will be willing to pay for this special "God realization?" 

Do you see how belittling other teachers who have more inclusive, clear teachings such as Rupert Spira, etc, potentially further cuts people in this community off from realizing that they ARE in fact what they seek? 

24 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

But we make it very clear here that spirituality is dangerous- and we have tons of disclaimers. 

Spirituality is not dangerous or difficult. You cannot say that the realization of that which you really are and always have been is dangerous. Saying it is dangerous does puff it up and makes it seem as if it's worth needing expert guidance and paying for some attainment. It also perpetuates misunderstanding and the very cutting off of oneSelf Love, which leads people to think things about themselves that they really ARE not enough somehow. Those misunderstood thoughts are what is "dangerous". 

24 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@AdeptusPsychonautica

If people want to get into spirituality we do tell them here that it is serious stuff and to know what they are getting themselves into. 

 

It's not serious AT ALL. 

"You cannot see your face and live." -God

Sounds dangerous. Sounds fantastic. Can you see your own f-ing face this moment? NO! The joke is on YOU. There is no you. That's the joke. 

24 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@AdeptusPsychonautica

 And it's also why Leo is shutting down the solipsism threads because most people are not ready for this when they first step into spirituality.  They have to start at the basic level.

There is no start for anyone. No basic. No levels. This is all elitism. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by mandyjw

[Inliytened1]

17 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Do you see how the idea of levels and "deeper" is a manipulation to make people think and feel as if they do not know something that Leo does know, and to want to pay money for special access to it. When IT is already, them? 

 

 

 

No I don't.  The teachings here can lead you to God..until you awaken then you are still asleep.  Kind of simple really.   You are falling into the neo-advaita trap.  There is no you and thus there is no one to awaken.  This is not correct.

 

17 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 

Do you see how belittling other teachers who have more inclusive, clear teachings such as Rupert Spira, etc, potentially further cuts people in this community off from realizing that they ARE in fact what they seek? 

 

Rupert Spiras teachings can be of great value I don't think anyone is belittling him.  

17 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 

Spirituality is not dangerous

"You cannot see you face and live." -God

It is indeed because with awakening you will die.  And I do not mean the physical body, which is imaginary.  I mean ego death.   This is very irresponsible for an awakened person for you to say.

 

17 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 

There is no start for anyone. No basic. No levels. This is all elitism. 

This is also irresponsible and again your falling into the neo-advaita trap.  There is no you.  There are no levels.  There's no awakening.  Incorrect.  There are stages.

[mandyjw]

"Neo advaita" is the new buzzword to dismiss and belittle anyone on this forum that is pointing out anything that aims to clarify the dogma here. That's kinda what makes it a cult. 

12 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Rupert Spiras teachings can be of great value I don't think anyone is belittling him.  

"Not awake" Passes off. Dismisses. 

12 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

It is indeed because with awakening you will die.  And I do not mean the physical body, which is imaginary.  I mean ego death.   This is very irresponsible for an awakened person for you to say.

You never were. Never were born. You will not die. Telling someone they will die when they realize themselves to be what they are feels very scary and off exactly because the Love, guidance that they are is saying "Nope, not possible for Me" to that thought. 

You are not a separate entity hat ever actually began. That's all. What never began cannot end. There's nothing scary of dangerous in the least about this. People create their own scary and danger when they believe is IS scary and danger and they must go through this like some final boss in a game. NO. The fear is only ever indicating a thought that comes on behalf of an imaginary separate self. "I am afraid of death." For who, Me? Hysterical. Hilarious. 

There was nothing at stake. No problem. Just a thought about one.

12 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

There are stages.

"All the world's a stage." Who's acting? 

Edited March 10, 2022 by mandyjw

[Danioover9000]

@Inliytened1  Can we agree at this point that denial is infinite? I see there being no compromise between you two at this point.

[Thought Art]

I’m here right now ?

I’ve  definitely been in low conscious states and higher conscious states 

some people are more awake than others

some people are more skilled than others

some people are more educated than others

its part of life 

different teachers have different goals 

I don’t know who is most awake but it’s obvious to me that different paths have different results ?

Mira probably not linear

God realization is a pretty big awakening and lots of teachers don’t teach this

and people get lost in verbal spiritual dirhea and concepts and dogmas 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Thought Art

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

"Neo advaita" is the new buzzword to dismiss and belittle anyone on this forum that is pointing out anything that aims to clarify the dogma here. That's kinda what makes it a cult. 

"Not awake" Passes off. Dismisses. 

You never were. Never were born. You

No it's an actual trap and you don't see it.  That's why it's a "trap"

And I was not belittling him in that thread - his teachings can be of great value but the teachings here are more complete.  Where his teachings fall short is where he still believes there are other minds outside of his own.  

And saying you were never born so you cannot die is more bypassing and speaking from the Absolute which is not in context.   You can't respond to everything with the Absolute.  It is not helpful to anyone 

[Manusia]

@Thought Art what is the point of awakening and the degree which one is attained? I don't get any more valid reason more than desire to awaken and curiosity.

[Thought Art]

3 minutes ago, Manusia said:

@Thought Art what is the point of awakening and the degree which one is attained? I don't get any more valid reason more than desire to awaken and curiosity.

The “highest Awakening” is completely useless but it’s also the greatest good and highest beauty. 
 

However, these awakenings can help you orient the relative to align more with the highest beauty, health, infinite forgiveness, Truth.  
 

Its Love. Forget the teacher of finite systems.
 

Calling this elitist is sort of funny 

In terms of enjoying the relative aspects of spirituality just explore different teachings and schools IMO 

there’s so much beauty here in this life to explore

Edited March 10, 2022 by Thought Art

[Danioover9000]

@mandyjw

2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

"Neo advaita" is the new buzzword to dismiss and belittle anyone on this forum that is pointing out anything that aims to clarify the dogma here. That's kinda what makes it a cult. 

"Not awake" Passes off. Dismisses. 

You never were. Never were born. You will not die. Telling someone they will die when they realize themselves to be what they are feels very scary and off exactly because the Love, guidance that they are is saying "Nope, not possible for Me" to that thought. 

You are not a separate entity hat ever actually began. That's all. What never began cannot end. There's nothing scary of dangerous in the least about this. People create their own scary and danger when they believe is IS scary and danger and they must go through this like some final boss in a game. NO. The fear is only ever indicating a thought that comes on behalf of an imaginary separate self. "I am afraid of death." For who, Me? Hysterical. Hilarious. 

There was nothing at stake. No problem. Just a thought about one.

"All the world's a stage." Who's acting? 

   That's kind off a limiting definition of a cult, so at any point I call Neo advaita to any spiritual topic I disagree with? It's more of a way to deflect and rebut a point, but that's rhetorical rather than a cult.

   A basic explanation of a cult, is that a cult leader or recruiter isolates the new member in their compound, then slowly over time breaks down their old identity to a society/culture and old life they were living, further seperating them from their friends, family, community, while slowly building in them a new identity towards being in the cult, being a follower of a cult leader, using various manipulation techniques to break down old identity and construct new identity. The cult leader is especially narcissistic, may have degrees of sociopathy and psychopathy, and is neurotic and fears the loss of control over each member of the cult.

   So how is this place a cult, when each member still has self agency and autonomy to leave whenever they want to?

   How is Leo Gura a cult leader, when he mostlt gives warnings and disclaimers against turning this work into an ideology, warns against dangers of spiritual work? No actual cult leader is this self defeating.

   

[mandyjw]

3 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

And I was not belittling him in that thread - his teachings can be of great value but the teachings here are more complete.  Where his teachings fall short is where he still believes there are other minds outside of his own. 

You are consistently verbatim quoting and believing what Leo writes here. 

When LEO says "RUPERT believes there are mind's outside his own" do you no see the hysterical irony here, that Leo is believing that Rupert holds in HIS mind that there are other minds. I mean...

What can you do but laugh? 

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

It is not helpful to anyone 

 Nope. Not helpful to anyone. No one to help, no one who needs help. 

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

You are consistently verbatim quoting and believing what Leo writes here. 

 

I became conscious of this directly.  It has nothing to do with Leo.  I actually had this awakening before Leo..but that's neither here nor there.  Be careful what you assume.

[mandyjw]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

A basic explanation of a cult, is that a cult leader or recruiter isolates the new member in their compound, then slowly over time breaks down their old identity to a society/culture and old life they were living, further seperating them from their friends, family, community, while slowly building in them a new identity towards being in the cult, being a follower of a cult leader, using various manipulation techniques to break down old identity and construct new identity.

What if I told you your friends are stage blue. YOU are stage yellow. Above. Better than. What if I told you your friends and family are toxic and you should cut contact with toxic people? 

6 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

warns against dangers of spiritual work? No actual cult leader is this self defeating.

   

The "dangers" of spiritual work makes it seem special and hard to obtain, only for the smartest, bravest, most developed, highest consciousness. The hero goes through many dangers on his quest. This is implanted in everyone who thinks themselves to be a separate self, a character, a player. Watched any books or movies, ever? Seen the "Hero's Journey" episode? 

If you say there never were any threats to begin with, this isn't bravery. It's not bravery and it's not DANGEROUS to see that the rope IS NOT a snake.

But anyone who goes around saying "it is not" is "neo advaita". The one dismissing of the SOURCE of danger is dismissed. See how this works? 

[Thought Art]

One must be cautious of everyone here. 
grounded in your own direct experience

and patient 

[Danioover9000]

@Thought Art

2 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

The “highest Awakening” is completely useless but it’s also the greatest good and highest beauty. 
 

Calling this elitist is sort of funny 

In terms of enjoy the relative aspects of spirituality just explore different teachings and schools IMO 

there’s so much beauty here in this life to explore

   I think he meant with calling it elitist, is that there are barriers of entry to accessing the necessary psychedelics, at volume and at certain levels of intensity, that it's not easy to go through wothout having the extra cash for it,because it depends on your value system, cognitive and moral development, personality traits,states of being and general and specific life experiences and genetics that will act sometimes as barriers of entry.

   For example, if your value system is more stage blue and less stage orange, have an American cultural upbringing, worldview of a boomer, cognitively cllose minded in general, morally an absolutist, sees world more in binaries, is too habituated with normal states of being, has limited emotional range, has few general and specific life experiences outside of the USA, is middle to low class, has a wife and children to look after, intimacy problems, too busy at work, a few hard core addictions and several or so soft addictions to work through, has a hobby, health and fitness declining and needs attention, less frey matter in brain to develop more open mindedness, and has low intrapersonal intelligence to be aware of a potential ideological view of spirituality and psychedelics, well it becomes already an uphill battle for such a person to do the work needed.