Leo featured in suicide cult article

[zurew]

10 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

The funny thing is when you do access these states there is no one else but you

Thats fine, if i want to say that those states are more true compare to the other states. However, most arguments are around 'from which state of consciousness can i make sense of reality the best' or 'How could i know, what is True?'. I know its a problematic statement, because it assumes a lot, but because langauge is limited and relative it will always be problematic.

We can make every claim relativistic, even the God ones if we want to. If you truly want to be objective, why would you put more emphasis on the God levels of consciousness compare to the other states. If i change my brain chemistry enough with 5 meo dmt, then my ego could be crushed and my perception of reality can change and also my knowledge about my identity as well. But why would you put more value on a certain state compare to the other states.

10 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

The funny thing is when you do access these states there is no one else but you

Also, i want to add here, that from that state, there is no one else but me. But again, why would i appretiate that state more to derive the Truth compare to the other ones. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by zurew

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Thats fine, if i want to say that those states are more true compare to the other states. However, most arguments are around 'from which state of consciousness can i make sense of reality the best' or 'How could i know, what is True?'. I know its a problematic statement, because it assumes a lot, but because langauge is limited and relative it will always be problematic.

We can make every claim relativistic, even the God ones if we want to. If you truly want to be objective, why would you put more emphasis on the God levels of consciousness compare to the other states. If i change my brain chemistry enough with 5 meo dmt, then my ego could be crushed and my perception of reality can change and also my knowledge about my identity as well. But why would you put more value on a certain state compare to the other states.

Thats a key trap.  One state of consciousness is not more special than another.  However there are higher - not better - states of consciousness.  Right now we are in a finite state.  But we can also be in an infinite state - though as you mentioned the ego will die in such a state.  It is here though, in an elevated state of consciousness that miracles can occur.  Miracles of course is a relative term.  But I mean here where the dream has the possibility of being altered in some fashion.

[mandyjw]

12 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yes, there is always a way to look at it. Especially, if we are talking about perspectives. I think reality is sort of perspectival. From a human's pov it could seem like that miracles are happening, you could say that is is not true, because from the so called absolute pov it is this or that. We can dismiss the so called relative povs, or we can say that every pov has an element of truth in it.

Do you have a perspective though? Is there a you that can posses a perspective? The only reason you can think a thought is because you are not a thought. The only way you can entertain a new "perspective" (or as directly experienced think a new thought) is because you do not HAVE a perspective that you are. 

It's not about being open-minded. There's no you that possesses a mind that can be closed or open. It's that "mind"
is a thought and "you" are a thought. What's always there aware of thought, is the true You. That foundation which is Nothing and Open, and not knowing, is the only Love/Truth. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of it because it can't be thought. Matter=thought. 

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

One state of consciousness is not more special than another.

Yes, but isn't most claims on this forum comes from the place, or from the claim, that the so called infinite levels consciousness pov is the "right", and from that pov we can basically allow ourselves, to make absolute claims, but on the other hand if someone disagrees with a certain position, then it can be dismissed or shut down, because he/she doesnt use the same level of consciousness as a basic foundation, to derive truth from.

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, mandyjw said:

Do you have a perspective though? Is there a you that can posses a perspective? The only reason you can think a thought is because you are not a thought. The only way you can entertain a new "perspective" (or as directly experienced think a new thought) is because you do not HAVE a perspective that you are. 

It's not about being open-minded. There's no you that possesses a mind that can be closed or open. It's that "mind"
is a thought and "you" are a thought. What's always there aware of thought, is the true You. That foundation which is Nothing and Open, and not knowing, is the only Love/Truth. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of it because it can't be thought. Matter=thought. 

I think your sliding into the neo-advaita trap.here.  there is a you it's just that the ego you doesn't really exist.  You are just Mind.

[Breakingthewall]

48 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

God does not posses the ability to manipulate. God does not possess anything at all, because it is all God. You ARE creation, creating, and creator. 

You could say: God has infinite ability to manipulate. all reality is god and is being infinitely manipulated by itself

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yes, but isn't most claims on this forum comes from the place, or from the claim, that the so called infinite levels consciousness pov is the "right", and from that pov we can basically allow ourselves, to make absolute claims, but on the other hand if someone disagrees with a certain position, then it can be dismissed or shut down, because he/she doesnt use the same level of consciousness as a basic foundation, to derive truth from.

There are facets of the Absolute that can be absolutely realized.  These are indeed Absolute Truths.  Such as that reality is indeed non-dual and Infinite at the deepest level.   But it doesn't make someone special to be God realized.  

[mandyjw]

 

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

I think your sliding into the neo-advaita trap.here.  there is a you it's just that the ego you doesn't really exist.  You are just Mind.

You have five senses, you know this, yes?

You directly experience separate senses? Yes, or no? Without thinking, right now, do you have separate senses?

Are you aware, right now?

If you are aware does it seem that when thinking, that awareness (not separate) is filtered through 5 separate senses? 

Mind is a filter. 

Do not mistake the filter for the water. Don't mistake the slide on the projector for the light. The projection and the projector are only light. The slide is not. 

You cannot KNOW yourself, you are the Knowing itself. Once misunderstanding (there are 5 senses and a separate me) is seen to be misunderstanding that is it. It cannot be called knowing or understanding, because it is not an "it", YOU are Aware. 

 

 

[zurew]

4 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Do you have a perspective though? Is there a you that can posses a perspective? 

Do you think, that what you say is not just a perspective? Because , so far what i have seen about these enlightenment arugments, is that there is so much disagreement between person and person, that it suggest, that there is much more place for not knowing compared to knowing.

7 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

The only way you can entertain a new "perspective" (or as directly experienced think a new thought) is because you do not HAVE a perspective that you are. 

But again, how do you arrive at the claim, about what I am. You are using the so called infinite consciousness, to derive at the conclusion that I am God. So you put more emphasis on that level of consciousness compared to the other ones. And now you can say, but at that level there is no one to have a perspective, but again, why do you want to make it out to be that it is more objective?

The level of consciousness which one use is the gatekeeper here. It basically changes everything.

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, mandyjw said:

 

You have five senses, you know this, yes?

You directly experience separate senses? Yes, or no? Without thinking, right now, do you have separate senses?

Are you aware, right now?

If you are aware does it seem that when thinking, that awareness (not separate) is filtered through 5 separate senses? 

Mind is a filter. 

Do not mistake the filter for the water. Don't mistake the slide on the projector for the light. The projection and the projector are only light. The slide is not. 

You cannot KNOW yourself, you are the Knowing itself. Once misunderstanding (there are 5 senses and a separate me) is seen to be misunderstanding that is it. It cannot be called knowing or understanding, because it is not an "it", YOU are Aware. 

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with that but we can also be in the relative and have perspectives.  I think that's what @zurew was pointing out. We need to be flexible and shift between the relative and absolute.  From the relative, we have a POV and it appears that we are these humans interacting on a forum

 

[mandyjw]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Do you think, that what you say is not just a perspective? Because , so far what i have seen about these enlightenment arugments, is that there is so much disagreement between person and person, that it suggest, that there is much more place for not knowing compared to knowing.

But again, how do you arrive at the claim, about what I am. You are using the so called infinite consciousness, to derive at the conclusion that I am God. So you put more emphasis on that level of consciousness compared to the other ones. And now you can say, but at that level there is no one to have a perspective, but again, why do you want to make it out to be that it is more objective?

The level of consciousness which one use is the gatekeeper here. It basically changes everything.

Because we do not actually HAVE perspectives, but think we do, we disagree. Makes sense, right? We are actually in disagreement with our Selves. 

Consciousness is the ever open gate. The level of consciousness is not a gatekeeper.  Consciousness first, and then you may have "perspective", perspective is THEN used to separate high from low and assign levels, only by separating itSelf. Go direct to Consciousness, do not pass go and do not collect $200. There's no where to even go. 

[mandyjw]

34 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

There are facets of the Absolute that can be absolutely realized. 

Realized as in "I know this" or realized that that I BE, ARE it? 

35 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Such as that reality is indeed non-dual and Infinite at the deepest level. 

non-dual and infinite has NO levels. To have levels we must separate, higher, lower. There is no deepest or highest level. 

35 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

But it doesn't make someone special to be God realized.  

It doesn't make someone anything at all. What you think yourself to be is the house upon the sand. Doesn't the term "God realized" as it is used in this community imply special knowledge? Again, what does "realize" really mean? Is realize knowledge a separate someone possesses? Or is realize, real eyes, Awareness just what you Are? 

[mandyjw]

56 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

You could say: God has infinite ability to manipulate. all reality is god and is being infinitely manipulated by itself

God does not "have", he does not possess. There are no hands of God to grasp, or manipulate what is first grasped, which is exactly why "He's got the whole world in his hands".

"Look! No hands, Mom! " 

[zurew]

11 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

The level of consciousness is not a gatekeeper.

It is though. There is something that is either seperate or not, that tries to figure itself out. From this human pov we call it 'changing its own states'. We can say other things but that describes it fair imo. This thing can change itself to be aware of different kind of things.

If i use your position, then i can say, that everything that zurew said above is just false, because his relative pov about this problem is coming from the finite self, and not from the infinite self. The infinite self (which is exactly true compared to the finite self) realises its True nature. Everything that a relative self can do or make sense of is either false or just partially true. There is no other, there is no separation , its just Isness. No manipulation, no doing because it assumes a doer, or a manipulator. When you realise that you are absolute, there will be no more questions, because there is no one that could ask those questions. But with all that said, for example if a question pops up that 'is there a reality out there?' . This question assumes a lot in an of itself, but it can be investigated with infinite number of different kind of tools ,and states of consciousness, and then at the end of the day you can say that yours is the right one, and maybe you will be right, but maybe you won't (again here is an assumption that there are others, I think making different kind of foundational assumption can create different kind of paths to explore, without assuming, that there is only one True way).

Now, in my opinion, that above is cool and all, but Reality or God can be investigated from infinite different kind of states of consciousness, and not just that, but it can be investigated with different kind of epistemic tools. For me, every tool is just a tool and neither of them holds more speciality compare to the other ones. Of course again it could be said, you just say that only, because you think you are this finite self and that you think there is a seperate investigator. I know the very need to explore God from more perspectives and with different tools can be questioned and could be called problematic in  an of itself, but right now, i am (limited ego talking here) holding this position.

[Inliytened1]

@AdeptusPsychonautica if you are referring to this quote by Leo:

"I can help you to discover that you are God. When you do realize that you are God, this will instantaneously solve every single problem in your life, not only that but it will heal you, it will heal you of every disease and problem that you have"

As I pointed out before enlightenment does not permanently heal you of any illnesses you had previously.  While in a state of God Consciousness you will not have any ailments.   But on returning to your ego those illnesses may persist.  It does give you access to Infinite inteligence and can help with clearing up problems in your life.  

If he clarified this already then we can put this to rest.  I was more interested in your other criticism.  I think Leo is going to be making some changes and putting the deeper content behind a pay wall.  But we make it very clear here that spirituality is dangerous- and we have tons of disclaimers. If people want to get into spirituality we do tell them here that it is serious stuff and to know what they are getting themselves into.   And it's also why Leo is shutting down the solipsism threads because most people are not ready for this when they first step into spirituality.  They have to start at the basic level.

[mandyjw]

24 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

I think Leo is going to be making some changes and putting the deeper content behind a pay wall.  

Do you see how the idea of levels and "deeper" is a manipulation to make people think and feel as if they do not know something that Leo does know, and to want to pay money for special access to it. When IT is already, them? 

Do you see how having videos feeding people into self actualization and pick up, etc, are marketed to people who are  feeling as if they are not enough somehow, the same people who will be willing to pay for this special "God realization?" 

Do you see how belittling other teachers who have more inclusive, clear teachings such as Rupert Spira, etc, potentially further cuts people in this community off from realizing that they ARE in fact what they seek? 

24 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

But we make it very clear here that spirituality is dangerous- and we have tons of disclaimers. 

Spirituality is not dangerous or difficult. You cannot say that the realization of that which you really are and always have been is dangerous. Saying it is dangerous does puff it up and makes it seem as if it's worth needing expert guidance and paying for some attainment. It also perpetuates misunderstanding and the very cutting off of oneSelf Love, which leads people to think things about themselves that they really ARE not enough somehow. Those misunderstood thoughts are what is "dangerous". 

24 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@AdeptusPsychonautica

If people want to get into spirituality we do tell them here that it is serious stuff and to know what they are getting themselves into. 

 

It's not serious AT ALL. 

"You cannot see your face and live." -God

Sounds dangerous. Sounds fantastic. Can you see your own f-ing face this moment? NO! The joke is on YOU. There is no you. That's the joke. 

24 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@AdeptusPsychonautica

 And it's also why Leo is shutting down the solipsism threads because most people are not ready for this when they first step into spirituality.  They have to start at the basic level.

There is no start for anyone. No basic. No levels. This is all elitism. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by mandyjw

[Inliytened1]

17 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Do you see how the idea of levels and "deeper" is a manipulation to make people think and feel as if they do not know something that Leo does know, and to want to pay money for special access to it. When IT is already, them? 

 

 

 

No I don't.  The teachings here can lead you to God..until you awaken then you are still asleep.  Kind of simple really.   You are falling into the neo-advaita trap.  There is no you and thus there is no one to awaken.  This is not correct.

 

17 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 

Do you see how belittling other teachers who have more inclusive, clear teachings such as Rupert Spira, etc, potentially further cuts people in this community off from realizing that they ARE in fact what they seek? 

 

Rupert Spiras teachings can be of great value I don't think anyone is belittling him.  

17 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 

Spirituality is not dangerous

"You cannot see you face and live." -God

It is indeed because with awakening you will die.  And I do not mean the physical body, which is imaginary.  I mean ego death.   This is very irresponsible for an awakened person for you to say.

 

17 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 

There is no start for anyone. No basic. No levels. This is all elitism. 

This is also irresponsible and again your falling into the neo-advaita trap.  There is no you.  There are no levels.  There's no awakening.  Incorrect.  There are stages.

[mandyjw]

"Neo advaita" is the new buzzword to dismiss and belittle anyone on this forum that is pointing out anything that aims to clarify the dogma here. That's kinda what makes it a cult. 

12 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Rupert Spiras teachings can be of great value I don't think anyone is belittling him.  

"Not awake" Passes off. Dismisses. 

12 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

It is indeed because with awakening you will die.  And I do not mean the physical body, which is imaginary.  I mean ego death.   This is very irresponsible for an awakened person for you to say.

You never were. Never were born. You will not die. Telling someone they will die when they realize themselves to be what they are feels very scary and off exactly because the Love, guidance that they are is saying "Nope, not possible for Me" to that thought. 

You are not a separate entity hat ever actually began. That's all. What never began cannot end. There's nothing scary of dangerous in the least about this. People create their own scary and danger when they believe is IS scary and danger and they must go through this like some final boss in a game. NO. The fear is only ever indicating a thought that comes on behalf of an imaginary separate self. "I am afraid of death." For who, Me? Hysterical. Hilarious. 

There was nothing at stake. No problem. Just a thought about one.

12 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

There are stages.

"All the world's a stage." Who's acting? 

Edited March 10, 2022 by mandyjw

[Danioover9000]

@Inliytened1  Can we agree at this point that denial is infinite? I see there being no compromise between you two at this point.

[Thought Art]

I’m here right now ?

I’ve  definitely been in low conscious states and higher conscious states 

some people are more awake than others

some people are more skilled than others

some people are more educated than others

its part of life 

different teachers have different goals 

I don’t know who is most awake but it’s obvious to me that different paths have different results ?

Mira probably not linear

God realization is a pretty big awakening and lots of teachers don’t teach this

and people get lost in verbal spiritual dirhea and concepts and dogmas 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Thought Art