Leo featured in suicide cult article

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura It doesn’t have to be expensive. The whole reason it IS expensive is because society as a whole undervalues it and there is shame around it. 

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You were using verbal games to sow doubt and confusion as to the existence of God/Love.

You are a naughty girl. Tsk, tsk!

God/Love exists. Absolutely. Here you are.

I'm naught a girl. 

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Leo Gura It doesn’t have to be expensive. The whole reason it IS expensive is because society as a whole undervalues it and there is shame around it.

That's not why it is expensive.

It's expensive because it requires lots of education and licensing to practice and working with people one on one is time consuming, inefficient, and stressful.

If therapy became more popular it would become even more expensive as law of supply and demand dictates.

[Thought Art]

Why not… use all the tools at your disposal in an intelligent way as some tools address aspects of your consciousness, psyche and being that others don’t . 
 

If you don’t use a tool at the right time it can be poison. However, if you use the right tool at the right time it can be medicine. Also, in the right way or wrong way will have different results.
 

Tools likely need to be used in conjunction with other tools depending on desired results of your work, and your own unique needs. Speaking to a therapist and having some cognitive behavioural work is great for example. It addresses areas a psychedelic won’t. But a psychedelic will hit notes and reshape your mind and heart in a way talk therapy won’t. Also, a lot of tension and trauma is heal in the body so there are many physical treatments one can use. As well as other basic systems for living upgrades that can improve quality of life.

It appears to me you want to develop a balanced and intelligent approach to awakening, health, and living. 
 

All for awakening, health, longevity and well being overall. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Thought Art

[RMQualtrough]

4 hours ago, mandyjw said:

There was a teacher here who really encouraged psychotherapy for people on the path. He was belittled for it, (that's not how you awaken, etc) and then eventually asked to leave the forum. This was before the suicides.

I think there have been a lot of red flags along the way and a fundamental complete misunderstanding of what mental illness IS in this community. When articles demonize someone for misunderstanding, they just usually cause people to buckle down that THEY KNOW the right way. Unfortunately the tone here perpetuates a lot of shame around psychotherapy, mental illness, expression, and healing in general which is not separate from awakening at all. 

Mentally ill people need medical intervention, it is really that simple.

Talk therapy is just quacks from college with a Cornflakes box "degree". Psychiatry is practiced by doctors who have graduated from medical school, and are legally allowed to prescribe any medicines their client requires.

I have certainly lost my life to AvPD (as in the life I would have had without developing this condition). Western medicine allows me to do normal day to day tasks without having a panic attack, which means I can at least live and exist without panicking every time I pass someone on the street.

Psychedelics do not work for mental illness. I took part in these studies actually. What they do is send you questionnaires with sliding scale answers. Firstly if you take one of these tests 3 times in the very same day, most likely you will get a different result. But removing outliers, it also did not take into account the "afterglow" effect... When I was using psychedelics often, I stopped taking my anti-anxiety medicine (Zoloft). I answered the questionnaire as though I was miraculously cured etc.

Well then 6 months later or something like that, I was randomly becoming suicidal every other week or so. I went back on medication and became well again after ~2 to 4 weeks... It's like when schiz people stop taking meds, you don't always notice as you're slowly slipping back into illness.

[OBEler]

@RMQualtrough so you claim the study just ask you on the day you use psychedelics? No questions how you feel after some weeks? 

Bad study Design, there are lot of other study which consider this

 

How long could you stay off of your Anti depressiva when taking psychedelics? 

[RMQualtrough]

12 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@RMQualtrough so you claim the study just ask you on the day you use psychedelics? No questions how you feel after some weeks? 

Bad study Design, there are lot of other study which consider this

 

How long could you stay off of your Anti depressiva when taking psychedelics? 

They ask at regular intervals. But of course directly before and after are among those intervals.

A problem I found, which I tried to mitigate using the boxes for additional comments, is that it does not take into account general life happenings. IIRC this was during COVID and the lockdown rules were changing frequently. But also for example, when I went back on medication, I had a follow up quiz some time after. There was no place to ask whether I have altered any medication I am taking etc. So improvements I would have to report based on the timescale they ask (usually "in the last two weeks") were actually due to the Zoloft I was now taking again.

I added this information in the boxes but I doubt many bother.

In my own experience, Western medicine is a superior means of treatment. There was nowhere in the questionnaires where this experience would be reflected... If you are using psychedelics very regularly etc, there is an effect similar to when schizophrenics stop taking meds and are convinced they are better. Despite outwardly spiralling... You don't notice the illness creeping back up on you because it is quite slow...

Look at Connor Murphy. He was completely psychotic, convinced that he was completely mentally well doing better than ever. It happens.

There's a lot I could write, but definitely I would recommend Western medicine. I would not recommend psychedelic drugs for mental health issues. No way. It might help with self acceptance WITH having the condition though.

[mandyjw]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not why it is expensive.

It's expensive because it requires lots of education and licensing to practice and working with people one on one is time consuming, inefficient, and stressful.

If therapy became more popular it would become even more expensive as law of supply and demand dictates.

Why is elementary and high school not expensive for families? Because society values education. Why do people benefit from therapy? Because we spend our lives hiding who we really are, because we thought we were something we actually aren't. We repress the love that we really are, thinking that we are bad, wrong, inept, thinking we have become great to prove our worth, or thinking such things about others, thinking we can't trust others, can't open up to others. We don't understand that we are unconditional love and anything that feels like less than that is a thought that can be let go of. Talk therapy is letting go of thoughts that never "fit" with the love that we really are. When someone holds space for you to be as you are, to speak what you really mean it can be immensely powerful. And we could learn honestly relate with each other and openly accept one another to the point where those special circumstances aren't needed. People often repress things, then shame themselves, which is the repression, and when they stop doing this magic happens. Walls fall. When you see that what is utterly unacceptable about yourself is perfectly accepted, all illusions or borders disappear. 

Instead of this utter liberation and freedom to love and nothing else, enlightenment is often talked about here like a special attainment. It feels like being back in 5th grade where we are building up walls based around out parents and peer's misunderstandings, trying to make them fit, repressing emotions and cutting ourselves off from our own love, creativity and authenticity. If you don't have cool enough shoes (5meo) or speak the way others speak and like what others like you are "out" or unworthy. 

Spiritual cliques are called cults. And if it's centered around one person, that is the definition of a cult. 

People seek awakening in the hopes that they will feel better in the having of it, when they find that is is Love/feeling all along and they were never separate from it, and there is no one even there to awaken to that there is no one there, the entire chase is a funny misunderstanding. A misunderstanding once seen to be a misunderstanding, is Understanding. That's all "you" get. Nothing. You get nothing. When one tries to manipulate enlightenment or "God realization" into being it feels awful. If one is repressing their authentic being as Love by habit since 5th grade and is seeing enlightenment through the lens of special attainment like the shoes, it's gonna be a miserable fucking ride. Why? Cause what they are seeking is the very feeling that is guiding them, that IS the feeling that they are running from. 

Enlightenment is not scary, dangerous, difficult, any of that. It's not only for a select few. It's not for the cool kids. When people believe that it IS that, they repress. 

It's simple. Express, don't repress. You can only let go of all the shit you are NOT to "realize" what you really are. 

It's as simple as what they taught us on Barney as kids. All the dumb cliches are right on. Love, be a fucking dork, be who you are and love yourself anyway. Don't try to secure a false self. It's a THOUGHT, A goddamn thought! Dance like no one is watching. We are here to have a wild, fucking BLAST. Beauty is uncaused. We are beautiful beyond words.

Psychotherapy is a good start on it all, doesn't matter how you do it though. Psychedelics often allow people to do the same. Same idea. Express, let go. 

[Nadosa]

12 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Why is elementary and high school not expensive for families? Because society values education. Why do people benefit from therapy? Because we spend our lives hiding who we really are, because we thought we were something we actually aren't. We repress the love that we really are, thinking that we are bad, wrong, inept, thinking we have become great to prove our worth, or thinking such things about others, thinking we can't trust others, can't open up to others. We don't understand that we are unconditional love and anything that feels like less than that is a thought that can be let go of. Talk therapy is letting go of thoughts that never "fit" with the love that we really are. When someone holds space for you to be as you are, to speak what you really mean it can be immensely powerful. And we could learn honestly relate with each other and openly accept one another to the point where those special circumstances aren't needed. People often repress things, then shame themselves, which is the repression, and when they stop doing this magic happens. Walls fall. When you see that what is utterly unacceptable about yourself is perfectly accepted, all illusions or borders disappear. 

Instead of this utter liberation and freedom to love and nothing else, enlightenment is often talked about here like a special attainment. It feels like being back in 5th grade where we are building up walls based around out parents and peer's misunderstandings, trying to make them fit, repressing emotions and cutting ourselves off from our own love, creativity and authenticity. If you don't have cool enough shoes (5meo) or speak the way others speak and like what others like you are "out" or unworthy. 

Spiritual cliques are called cults. And if it's centered around one person, that is the definition of a cult. 

People seek awakening in the hopes that they will feel better in the having of it, when they find that is is Love/feeling all along and they were never separate from it, and there is no one even there to awaken to that there is no one there, the entire chase is a funny misunderstanding. A misunderstanding once seen to be a misunderstanding, is Understanding. That's all "you" get. Nothing. You get nothing. When one tries to manipulate enlightenment or "God realization" into being it feels awful. If one is repressing their authentic being as Love by habit since 5th grade and is seeing enlightenment through the lens of special attainment like the shoes, it's gonna be a miserable fucking ride. Why? Cause what they are seeking is the very feeling that is guiding them, that IS the feeling that they are running from. 

Enlightenment is not scary, dangerous, difficult, any of that. It's not only for a select few. It's not for the cool kids. When people believe that it IS that, they repress. 

It's simple. Express, don't repress. You can only let go of all the shit you are NOT to "realize" what you really are. 

It's as simple as what they taught us on Barney as kids. All the dumb cliches are right on. Love, be a fucking dork, be who you are and love yourself anyway. Don't try to secure a false self. It's a THOUGHT, A goddamn thought! Dance like no one is watching. We are here to have a wild, fucking BLAST. Beauty is uncaused. We are beautiful beyond words.

Psychotherapy is a good start on it all, doesn't matter how you do it though. Psychedelics often allow people to do the same. Same idea. Express, let go. 

Mic dropped.?

[Gesundheit2]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The fundamental dishonesty of many Actualized.org critics is that they simply don't like teachings yet they must engage in mental gymnastics and personal attacks to rationalize it in their minds, rather than just being honest and admitting the truth: They just don't like the teachings.

If you don't like my teachings, no problem. Just be honest about it. Don't make up stories. You don't need to call me a pedophile cult leader. Just say, "I don't like your teachings."

I like many of your "teachings". I just don't think you teach the truth, nor that you could to begin with.

[Gesundheit2]

1 hour ago, RMQualtrough said:

Mentally ill people need medical intervention, it is really that simple.

Talk therapy is just quacks from college with a Cornflakes box "degree". Psychiatry is practiced by doctors who have graduated from medical school, and are legally allowed to prescribe any medicines their client requires.

I have certainly lost my life to AvPD (as in the life I would have had without developing this condition). Western medicine allows me to do normal day to day tasks without having a panic attack, which means I can at least live and exist without panicking every time I pass someone on the street.

Psychedelics do not work for mental illness. I took part in these studies actually. What they do is send you questionnaires with sliding scale answers. Firstly if you take one of these tests 3 times in the very same day, most likely you will get a different result. But removing outliers, it also did not take into account the "afterglow" effect... When I was using psychedelics often, I stopped taking my anti-anxiety medicine (Zoloft). I answered the questionnaire as though I was miraculously cured etc.

Well then 6 months later or something like that, I was randomly becoming suicidal every other week or so. I went back on medication and became well again after ~2 to 4 weeks... It's like when schiz people stop taking meds, you don't always notice as you're slowly slipping back into illness.

This can happen, but doesn't always. Many mental illnesses/cases are terminal even with medical intervention. The medication can actually worsen the illness in many cases.

We don't really understand mental illnesses well yet, or even just the mind alone.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Gesundheit2]

54 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

enlightenment is often talked about here like a special attainment.

Enlightenment is a special attainment.

Quote

It feels like being back in 5th grade where we are building up walls based around out parents and peer's misunderstandings, trying to make them fit, repressing emotions and cutting ourselves off from our own love, creativity and authenticity. If you don't have cool enough shoes (5meo) or speak the way others speak and like what others like you are "out" or unworthy. 

There's no justification for any of this in spirituality. It's just ego. And it's exactly what prevents enlightenment. People need less of that, not more.

Quote

Enlightenment is not scary, dangerous, difficult, any of that.

It is all of those things for many people.

Quote

It's not only for a select few. It's not for the cool kids.

Unfortunately, it seems like it is.

Quote

When people believe that it IS that, they repress.

There's not really a cause and an effect, especially with psychology.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Inliytened1]

19 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

This can happen, but doesn't always. Many mental illnesses/cases are terminal even with medical intervention. The medication can actually worsen the illness in many cases.

We don't really understand mental illnesses well yet, or even just the mind alone.

Western medicine really is wonderful for treating mental disorders.  But I believe psychedelics could be even more powerful. 

[Loba]

@RMQualtrough I agree with you whole heartedly, that sometimes people who are mentally ill need medical intervention.  It is usually people who don't even have a mental illness, or who are still struggling, but went off their meds that tell people they should not take them for this reason and that reason.  Medicine gave me my mind and my life back.  I was literally nearly catatonic at times, or manic at other times, and ended up being committed to a hospital where I was put on meds and slowly, but surely my sense of reality started to come together.

Some people are able to heal themselves, this is true, but this isn't the majority.  Most people with severe mental illness need help.  At the hospital, so so sooo many people got better on the medication, you could see the huge difference when someone came into the hospital, and when they were stabilized and left - they were so much saner.  And so was I.

But talk therapy can also be helpful, it just depends on where you are at and what you need.  The problem is that a good therapist is hard to find and very expensive.  The ones who are not good could leave you worse off than before.  But a good therapist/client relationship can be very beneficial for some folks.

I don't recommend psychedelics for mental health problems, either, unless done with someone who knows what they are doing that can guide the treatment.  The thing is, mental illnesses are caused by a change in brain chemistry usually, and so drugs that are prescribed are made specifically to treat that, whereas other methods aren't, or could open the floodgates to more damage.  I think they are best used by people who have trauma that they are working through - this can help - but mental illness caused by brain chemistry needs to be fixed with the right medication.

I used to be anti-med for the longest time, parroting what spiritual people told me, until I actually stuck with treatment and wrote down my entire mental collapse for a year, I could/can go back and see a huge difference.  I was stuck, frantically trying to fix this near catatonia/delusions with spirituality and it made the delusions worse.

Meds not only fixed the delusions, but they did not come back - and my catatonic state is going away with daily work/self care - of which my brain couldn't even do without getting those chemicals stabilized.  

I felt so sorry for Connor Murphy, he was manic and didn't know it.  When people get into spirituality before even coming to understand their illness, this can cause huge problems for them, because spiritual insight and psychosis feel so similar.  But I suppose the difference is that with genuine insight, the person comes out of it either more grounded or more stable... usually, there are some odd ones out there who go through madness and come out wise but that's not the norm, either.

[OBEler]

@RMQualtrough Interesting points, thanks!

Yeah psychedelics used by toxic minds (brain chemistry out of order) could be difficult. psychedelics used by minds with traumas but not much toxicity could be life changing.

Connor murphy is a good example. However he seems fine now and back to normal. Maybe he healed a trauma with these psychedelics. He seems happy at least

[Inliytened1]

11 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@RMQualtrough Interesting points, thanks!

Yeah psychedelics used by toxic minds (brain chemistry out of order) could be difficult. psychedelics used by minds with traumas but not much toxicity could be life changing.

Connor murphy is a good example. However he seems fine now and back to normal. Maybe he healed a trauma with these psychedelics. He seems happy at least

I also think if you are not ready maturity wise it can screw you up.  It's unearned wisdom 

[RMQualtrough]

@Inliytened1 What psychedelics are good for is to heighten acceptance. They do not lessen the mental illness, but may lessen the suffering resulting from failing to accept yourself. Understanding reality is merely unfolding by itself, I do not feel there is anything to fight or that anything could be different than it was always going to be... I still feel the symptoms, but less so the self judgement that would typically accompany it, where I chastise myself for being so weird etc.

@Loba I think attitudes to mental health are dangerous for reasons you mentioned... If you have heart disease, obviously you pop a pill for it daily. But with mental illness there's this delusion that you can "will it away" by thinking the perfect thought or whatever.

Something that I am realizing is that the more unity is understood, the more the materialist framework makes sense: e.g. matter IS NOT SEPARATE FROM MIND, meaning that you cannot alter one without altering the other. Because they are the same exact thing... I don't think we have control over mind any more than we have control over abilities to fly or levitate objects or bend objects like The Matrix. As material is essentially a perceived representation of the dream. The grey squiggly brain a GUI representing awareness "person-ing".

As such, a lot could be learned from observing the material world, when it is understood that matter IS mind. Not matter doing something then mind following, or vice versa. The material world could tell us a LOT about the workings of "God" and death etc. when this is completely understood and explored.

Altering the brain with medicine IS altering this experience of "person-ing". And all of us are merely riding a wave of unfolding reality anyway...

[Inliytened1]

11 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

@Inliytened1 What psychedelics are good for is to heighten acceptance. They do not lessen the mental illness, but may lessen the suffering resulting from failing to accept yourself. Understanding reality is merely unfolding by itself, I do not feel there is anything to fight or that anything could be different than it was always going to be... I still feel the symptoms, but less so the self judgement that would typically accompany it, where I chastise myself for being so weird etc.

 

Actually it is not the psychedelic but what the psychedelic can trigger  - awakening - that can actually alleviate the illness.  I know this because my awakening completely alleviated OCD.    Unfortunately, just like western medicine, it is not a permanent cure.  Because eventually the more you sink back into the dream and your ego, what came with your ego will return.   But it is more powerful than meds if indeed it awakens you.  (I've taken meds so I am speaking from experience) And can alleviate symptoms for years.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Talk therapy is just quacks from college with a Cornflakes box "degree". Psychiatry is practiced by doctors who have graduated from medical school, and are legally allowed to prescribe any medicines their client requires.

Talk therapy requires training and licensing.

If anything I would criticize psychiatrists more because mostly what they do is over-prescribe shitty medication which is just a form of bypassing.

Quote

Western medicine allows me to do normal day to day tasks without having a panic attack, which means I can at least live and exist without panicking every time I pass someone on the street.

Some things medication can help with.

Quote

Psychedelics do not work for mental illness.

A lot of medications also don't work for mental illness, they just mask / suppress the symptoms and come with bad side effects and even become addictive.

The bottom line is that mental illness is complicated and there's not going to be a magic pill cure for it in most cases.

2 hours ago, mandyjw said:

Why is elementary and high school not expensive for families? Because society values education.

Because teachers are poorly paid.

Quote

Talk therapy is letting go of thoughts that never "fit" with the love that we really are. When someone holds space for you to be as you are, to speak what you really mean it can be immensely powerful.

Yes, of course. I agree that's good.

Quote

Instead of this utter liberation and freedom to love and nothing else, enlightenment is often talked about here like a special attainment. It feels like being back in 5th grade where we are building up walls based around out parents and peer's misunderstandings, trying to make them fit, repressing emotions and cutting ourselves off from our own love, creativity and authenticity. If you don't have cool enough shoes (5meo) or speak the way others speak and like what others like you are "out" or unworthy. 

Well, awakening is a distinctive attainment.

But of course that should not be turned into some sort of trophy, and nor will it solve basic psychological problems people have.

Quote

Spiritual cliques are called cults. And if it's centered around one person, that is the definition of a cult. 

That's actually not the definition of a cult. Go read the books on my book list about what really defines a cult. Or watch my video: Cult Psychology - Part 1 where I give an exhaustive definition.

A YT channel centered around one person's videos is not a cult.

Quote

All the dumb cliches are right on. Love, be a fucking dork, be who you are and love yourself anyway. Don't try to secure a false self. It's a THOUGHT, A goddamn thought! Dance like no one is watching. We are here to have a wild, fucking BLAST. Beauty is uncaused. We are beautiful beyond words.

You can do all that and still not be anywhere near awake. Teaching people to "just love" can easily becomes a false spiritual act they take on. For love to work it has to be an outgrowth of higher consciousness. You cannot just act your way into love.

[RMQualtrough]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Talk therapy requires training and licensing.

If anything I would criticize psychiatrists more because mostly what they do is over-prescribe shitty medication which is just a form of bypassing.

Some things medication can help with.

A lot of medications also don't work for mental illness, they just mask / suppress the symptoms and come with bad side effects and even become addictive.

The bottom line is that mental illness is complicated and there's not going to be a magic pill cure for it in most cases.

Talking from the inside of it, the stigma against medication for mental health is insane and needs to stop. I went without medication for about 8 years since it began solely because medication is demonized, and I believed the propaganda against it. I suffered much more through those years than I would have if I had done what a doctor recommended which is medication.

I take my brain medicine every single day just as I would take heart medicine if I was diagnosed with a heart condition.

It is especially bad when it relates to the type of issues I have, as anxiety and depressive type disorders are seen as something you can "just get over". It's not treated seriously at all. Hyperventilating with fear every time I walk into an office, or when I was a student being unable to enter a classroom, seems to fly under the radar of receiving the type of care it ought to.

[Leo Gura]

@RMQualtrough This issue is too complex for there to a one-size-fits-all solution. For some people it can really help, and for other people it ruins their lives.

And Actualized.org teachings are no different. For some people it really helps and for other people it doesn't.

You have to decide what works for you. And if something is not working for you, stop consuming it.