Is F+ request morally wrong?

[Jacob Morres]

Didn't read the post but it's only morally wrong if you're not authentic with your intentions and  It could also be the right thing to do to end the relationship if she's getting attached to you and you are not

[Michal__]

3 hours ago, Hello from Russia said:

You guys project a ton of shit onto me, none of which is true

What do I project? I didn't mean it in any offensive sort of way, sorry it it seemed like that.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Michal__

[Hello from Russia]

8 minutes ago, Michal__ said:

What do I project? I didn't mean it in any offensive sort of way, sorry it it seemed like that.

You guys project as though I have no clue, which is false

All I did was expressing that I adore sexually open women

[Preety_India]

@Aleister Crowleyy it's a creepy feeling for women. A woman needs trust. She is not simply going to sleep with some random dude asking for sex. Sex is supposed to be intimate. 

People don't give rides to a stranger in their car let alone sex to some random dude. 

 

 

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

@Aleister Crowleyy it's a creepy feeling for women. A woman needs trust. She is not simply going to sleep with some random dude asking for sex. Sex is supposed to be intimate. 

People don't give rides to a stranger in their car let alone sex to some random dude. 

 

 

i mean countless people are having one night stands everyday so i don't think that's necessarily true

sure they vibe firsts a little bit

[Preety_India]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

i mean countless people are having one night stands everyday so i don't think that's necessarily true

sure they vibe firsts a little bit

Countless people also get roofied and raped. Should I care about someone's recklessness? Countless people are also getting STDs by sleeping with random strangers. 

 

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Aleister Crowleyy said:

@PurpleTree you must be a guy.

i'm a tree

[Preety_India]

7 minutes ago, Aleister Crowleyy said:

@Preety_India Every women feels used after sex anyways, in some form or another. How to do you gain trust? Hahahahha physical escalation(implicitly asking for sex).

Not true. A woman who feels safe with a man won't feel used. A woman's body is designed to screen for threat. She can tell if the guy is being an asshole or a gentle dude slowly escalating. She can sense discomfort naturally. 

See This is the problem with you guys. You don't have a woman's body to understand how a woman feels. Then you feel confused by women. Then you are confused forever. 

Most women can tell if a guy is bad or being authentic unless he is extremely manipulative. 

Asking how to gain the trust of a woman is to ask how to gain trust of a naive customer. The fact is not that you are trying to gain the trust of a woman, because there are many ways to do it, the real question should be how ethical is your process of gaining trust. 

An ethical way to gain trust is to make her feel safe, escalate only if she is truly interested, like Leo said try to vibe with her. Be an honest guy. Don't lie to her. Be well dressed. Don't be forceful. Don't make her feel threatened. Be gentle. Give her space and time. Don't sound desperate. 

 

[Michal__]

6 hours ago, Hello from Russia said:

You guys project as though I have no clue, which is false

All I did was expressing that I adore sexually open women

That's how online forums work.

Everyone things they know the best.

[something_else]

2 hours ago, Aleister Crowleyy said:

It's a creepy feeling. Men are sight-oriented. We are attracted to physical features of women. Women then see that as being sexual objectification. It is so fvcking annoying.

In a sense you are right, us men can't really understand why women feel like this because frankly we love being objectified by women right from the get go, it doesn't bother us

The die hard feminist idea that men are constantly objectifying women and that is toxic and evil and so on, is dumb. I have a feeling that is what you don't like and you are probably right to feel that way

But honestly I don't think this is as big of an issue as you make it out to be. Many girls like being objectified... by a guy that's playful, fun, attractive and set up a situation where the girl feels safe. Once you've reached that stage, nothing turns a girl on more than you using her like your dirty little sex object who exists purely to satisfy your deepest dirtiest desires for the night. Then cuddling up with her afterwards.

The problems occur when you are treating her like a subhuman item that exists purely to satisfy your desires right from the get go without any build up. Women interpret this as creepiness because they know what you want, and they know that you don't care for their wellbeing at all. You only care about your own desires and not what she wants. You're selfish and you offer her nothing. That is the kind of objectification women are repelled by

You're basically seen as spoilt child who just wants sex without giving the girl anything in return

[Leo Gura]

16 hours ago, Aleister Crowleyy said:

@Leo Gura Why does everything have to be implicit with women? Haha it's like men are explicit and women are implicit. They are impossible to speak to. Why is there so much fucking mind games involved?

Because, survival.

[Hello from Russia]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because, survival.

Why do you think women get away much more with being coy/playing double games than men do?

Not hating women or anything, it's so interesting

We even have this masculine conditioning - I'd you're not communicating straight, - ur a woman. We call out each other on this constantly

[somegirl]

7 hours ago, Preety_India said:

An ethical way to gain trust is to make her feel safe, escalate only if she is truly interested, like Leo said try to vibe with her. Be an honest guy. Don't lie to her. Be well dressed. Don't be forceful. Don't make her feel threatened. Be gentle. Give her space and time. Don't sound desperate. 

This.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Hello from Russia said:

Why do you think women get away much more with being coy/playing double games than men do?

Because men can compete through direct physical power.

Women must compete using soft power and social games because they would lose in a direct physical conflict.

When you are physically weaker you must employ more implicit and indirect methods. This is why women will give you their number and lie to you about wanting to see you again. It's too risky for a woman to create a direct physical confrontation.

[somegirl]

@Jannes  Is she into you? If yes, it would be immoral to sleep with her. She has emotions attached to you and you will break her feelings.

I once got asked if I wanted to be f buddies with one guy, and I actually liked the guy, and I said no at first. But then he kept sending me messages and I eventually agreed to do it (I was under love spell) but he was wise enough and declined sleeping with me when the moment has come, even though he wanted to do it. He knew I was in love with him and he knew I would be heartbroken after that.

Other guy who asked for casual sex said he didn't want to be in a relationship. But then later on I found out he was in a relationship with a girl. I felt hurt because it seemed like he viewed me as "a girl only for sex" and that other girl as "a girl for serious relationship". Thankfully nothing happened but it could have been be so bad.

[Reciprocality]

It would depend on how developed you both are, if she would feel hurt by it then that would not mean you should not have done it unless you are sensible to her personality and have reason to expect that she would.

If ethics were considered as a field then it would be magnitudes more complex a study then all other studies combined. It may be smart therefore not to expect to always please everyone but to act by certain low resolution principles with categories within which updates by your interaction with people.

It is completely your responsibility though to find out what is and is not okay for you to do with the limited information you have gathered and the limited sensibility and intelligence you (and we all) must have.

This forum is of course a good source for such information, though nothing compared to actual interaction. Given the minimal consequences this dilemma entails in general I think you should do what you want without much considerations of it. Use your energy more on the big dilemmas.

By thinking a lot on the bigger questions these less important ones tend to fall naturally in line with the bigger ones, though it is not impossible nor a bad idea to do the opposite; as in compare and understand the lesser dilemmas as in your example in terms of the higher ones.

Edit: to all of you who have these ready cut yes and no answers on normative and applied ethics: That is cute.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Reciprocality

[Jannes]

To my surprise I got another option right now so I won’t ask her for F+. 

I still don’t know what I would have done. And I would still like to know what the best thing to do would be. 

I think it’s funny how impossible this situation is to solve clearly. You can’t be honest because that would make the women feel slutty but you can’t pretend you would like to be in a relationship with her because that wouldn’t be honest and lead to a lot of hurt for the women down the line. Maybe it’s something that can only happen organically. For example if two people are dating, having sex and having a good time but after some time they realize they don’t feel love for each other but have good friend vibes then maybe F+ could work. But that’s only my guess I don’t have a lot of experience when it comes to relationships. And then the question remains what to guys do who don’t won’t a relationship but still want their sex need met? Are they in a dilemma where they either suffer themself or hurt other people?

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, somegirl said:

@Jannes  Is she into you? If yes, it would be immoral to sleep with her. She has emotions attached to you and you will break her feelings.

I once got asked if I wanted to be f buddies with one guy, and I actually liked the guy, and I said no at first. But then he kept sending me messages and I eventually agreed to do it (I was under love spell) but he was wise enough and declined sleeping with me when the moment has come, even though he wanted to do it. He knew I was in love with him and he knew I would be heartbroken after that.

Other guy who asked for casual sex said he didn't want to be in a relationship. But then later on I found out he was in a relationship with a girl. I felt hurt because it seemed like he viewed me as "a girl only for sex" and that other girl as "a girl for serious relationship". Thankfully nothing happened but it could have been be so bad.

I think that hits a key point really well. When you think about it logically saying that you don’t want to date a girl any longer would be worse then saying that you only want her as for sex. Because at least you give her physical approval instead of none approval whatsoever. So what makes the second thing so much worse is a underlying psychological process. There are women where I simply wouldn’t get the idea of just asking them for sex because I see them as potential relationship partner although if they asked me if I just wanted casual sex then I would of course say yes. Once we classified people in our mind in a certain way then it probably gets difficult to change that picture of them. And the change of relationship partner to just fuck buddy is pretty drastic so it probably doesn’t happen. And so it’s very revealing for a women because only if the guy saw her from the beginning as a sex object could he have made the change in his mind. That’s how I see it. Would be interested what you think.

She clearly likes me. Don’t know if she is into me. Wouldn’t ask for F+ in that case.

[puporing]

3 hours ago, Jannes said:

I still don’t know what I would have done. And I would still like to know what the best thing to do would be. 

I think it’s funny how impossible this situation is to solve clearly. You can’t be honest because that would make the women feel slutty but you can’t pretend you would like to be in a relationship with her because that wouldn’t be honest and lead to a lot of hurt for the women down the line. Maybe it’s something that can only happen organically. For example if two people are dating, having sex and having a good time but after some time they realize they don’t feel love for each other but have good friend vibes then maybe F+ could work. But that’s only my guess I don’t have a lot of experience when it comes to relationships. And then the question remains what to guys do who don’t won’t a relationship but still want their sex need met? Are they in a dilemma where they either suffer themself or hurt other people?

Obv you just have to pleasure yourself in that case and keep looking, unless you found someone mutually interested in just having a good time (which you can't really count on finding quickly). I mean even if you had a gf it may not be enough for you for some guys and gals so then what? It's prob never going to be 'enough' for some people. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by puporing

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Aleister Crowleyy said:

I h@te women. They are so fvcking unconscious in this damn dream of mine.

Do not spread woman-hating on this forum or you will get banned.

Be conscious of your biases and projections. You hate women because they are not giving you what you crave.