By treating Russia as a pariah, we painted ourselves into a corner

[Preety_India]

Please tell me where Putin says he is against NATO. Or this was because of NATO. 

Someone spread this propaganda on the forum that all of this had to do with NATO. 

The truth is that Putin wanted this anyway, with or without NATO. 

It's about geopolitics and buffer state like Belarus. 

 

[tsuki]

@Preety_India Have you tried googling your question?

Here's a first page match for "why did Putin invade Ukraine"?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589

 

[tsuki]

5 hours ago, Preety_India said:

The truth is that Putin wanted this anyway, with or without NATO. 

It's about geopolitics and buffer state like Belarus. 

And why does Russia need a buffer state? To protect itself from Poland? Lol

It needs the buffer state to protect itself against NATO as a whole.

[Preety_India]

@tsuki he emphasizes more on De-nazification. 

 

[vizual]

@Preety_India lol, the Nazi argument is the same as the weapons of mass destruction argument of George Bush. It’s a deceptive and fake reason to cast fear in the civilians so that they won’t protest the invasion

[tsuki]

@Preety_India @vizual I would expect that to Putin, Western government is extremist and because it is opposed to Russia, he would call it nazi.

[itachi uchiha]

No one is a saint.russia is no saint but it is the lesser of two evil according to different situation

[BlueOak]

1 hour ago, tsuki said:

@Preety_India @vizual I would expect that to Putin, Western government is extremist and because it is opposed to Russia, he would call it nazi.

That would make more sense because the Russia state narrative is it wants to remove nazi's
The azov battalion is estimated to be 900 strong, even if they were all Nazis and some not just trying to look 'cool' or be stupid teenagers.
That's fighting 400,000, and bombing 44 Million to kill 900 men. The point is I don't know how that narrative can hold up, but if they managed to demonize the west as whole to be Nazi's that makes more sense.

[Ryan_047]

11 hours ago, Preety_India said:

1. Most people believed and voted for him because they were frustrated with the nature of things. 

2. Wrong. Other parties, the communist parties tried to kill and scare his party. But he survived. 

3. Wrong. Many people were active and didn't want to oppose his directives because they had begun to admire him. This is opposite of dictatorship. 

 

 

This is all wrong, I'm sorry. That's not how things happened.

You can check out other books and sources that will pretty much say the same thing. What you are saying is the very condensed (and factually wrong) version schools systems teach. 

[BlueOak]

This is the most factual take on the tactical picture I have seen. Dispelling some myths from both sides.

[Preety_India]

@tsuki

2 hours ago, vizual said:

@Preety_India lol, the Nazi argument is the same as the weapons of mass destruction argument of George Bush. It’s a deceptive and fake reason to cast fear in the civilians so that they won’t protest the invasion

What I meant to say is that even if Ukraine wasn't actually a threat, Putin in his mind erroneously believes that Ukraine is a threat. How much of "Ukraine is not a threat" is true I don't know. Because I'm not a Ukrainian so I can't be aware of any Anti-russian sentiment in Ukraine. What if Ukraine came to power and became militarily very powerful and then attacked Russia? (in the absence of the current war). In that case, Putin's decision makes sense to avert a national threat before it becomes a threat. It's like killing the enemy before it gets stronger, like a preemptive move for protection (kill the enemy when it's small, because that is easier and stops it from getting bigger). So maybe he wants to hijack Ukraine before Ukraine can/could do anything to Russia. 

Information especially military Intel can sometimes be faulty and wrong. But it could be right. If the Russian military Intel has found evidence of anti Russian aggression in Ukraine, then it makes perfect sense why Putin would be alarmed. 

However this theory is based on mere speculation. 

 

[BlueOak]

Also if you believe the Belarus intelligence briefing farce, they are looking at Moldova.

[Ryan_047]

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

What if Ukraine came to power and became militarily very powerful and then attacked Russia? (in the absence of the current war). In that case, Putin's decision makes sense to avert a national threat before it becomes a threat. It's like killing the enemy before it gets stronger, like a preemptive move for protection (kill the enemy when it's small, because that is easier and stops it from getting bigger). So maybe he wants to hijack Ukraine before Ukraine can/could do anything to Russia. 

Honestly, you're right on your intuition but I'd replace Ukraine with "NATO" and that's when you understand some of Putin's fears. I recommend CaspianReport's video on "How an attack on Ukraine would look like" from a few weeks ago. It touches upon this aspect. 

[vizual]

Putin never saw Ukraine as a threat, lol. Quite the opposite, Putin saw Ukraine as a total joke. And he fears that if Ukraine becomes a Nato member, it will become an American puppet state. Just like Belarus is a Russian puppet state.

 So that’s why he bum rushed Ukraine expecting to take it over within a couple of days, with a complete disrespect of the Ukrainian armed forces. It’s clear he underestimated them and now has to use more time and resources to take over Ukraine than expected.

Edited March 3, 2022 by vizual

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

What if Ukraine came to power and became militarily very powerful and then attacked Russia? (in the absence of the current war).

You are right that this scenario is not a valid concern, but you are wrong that Ukraine is not a threat to Russia.

If Ukraine was a NATO member, NATO could station its troops in Ukraine, Lithuania and Estonia, which would create enormous pressure on Russia along with current economic sanctions that are placed on this country. We are not talking about immediate war threats, but more about long term positional situation. If Ukraine trenched up in NATO, it would be next to impossible to change the geopolitical situation for decades. This is why the change of governance in Ukraine is threatening to Russia and Putin was willing to start a war over it.

2 hours ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

Putin's reasons for invasion are probably a mix of objective geopolitical and societal factors (oil and gas, better defence against NATO, making Russia strong again - stopping it's decline), religious and cultural factors (keeping culturally and religiously closely related countries close to Russia), and his own personal ambitions (being remembered/being in history books as the guy that changed the course of Russia's history, and turned it into a major superpower again, after a long period of decline). That's my definitive opinion about this topic.

I agree.

Edited March 3, 2022 by tsuki

[Preety_India]

15 minutes ago, vizual said:

Putin never saw Ukraine as a threat, lol. Quite the opposite, Putin saw Ukraine as a total joke. And he fears that if Ukraine becomes a Nato member, it will become an American puppet state. Just like Belarus is a Russian puppet state.

4 minutes ago, tsuki said:

but you are wrong that Ukraine is not a threat to Russia.

 

[tsuki]

@Preety_India State your point.

[Preety_India]

Just now, tsuki said:

@Preety_India State your point.

I was saying that you said that Ukraine is a threat to Russia. The user above @vizual said that Ukraine is not a threat to Russia.

I actually do see Ukraine as a threat to Russia because.... 

What is this? How does someone explain this? 

 

[tsuki]

17 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I was saying that you said that Ukraine is a threat to Russia. The user above @vizual said that Ukraine is not a threat to Russia.

I disagree with him, obviously.

Ukraine is probably not a direct military threat, but an avenue for NATO to exert pressure on Russia. Still a threat though.

Edited March 3, 2022 by tsuki