By treating Russia as a pariah, we painted ourselves into a corner

[voxun]

14 hours ago, hello1234 said:

Why should russia have any more influence than it deserves? Why should it have equal amount of influence to the US? How did it earn this balance? 

For example, why should this:

 

have an equal amount of influence to this:

Wtf is this ?

[voxun]

This hole thing could have been avoided if the west listened to Russia's concerns regarding nato expansion.

Now obviously I am against this war or any war for that matter.

Ultimately I think the military industrial complex got exactly what they wanted. 

A cold war scenario and billions of potential profits.

There is also a lot of double standards from the west as we have started wars and killed people but we're acting like we haven't.

Edited March 2, 2022 by voxun

[Hardkill]

1 minute ago, voxun said:

This hole thing could have been avoided if the west listened to Russia's concerns regarding nato expansion.

Now obviously I am against this war or any war for that matter.

Ultimately I think the military industrial complex got exactly what they wanted. 

A cold war scenario and billions of potential profits.

There is also a lot of double standards from the west as we have started wars and killed people but we're acting like we haven't.

Maybe....

Then again, even if NATO did agree to not allow Ukraine or any other nearby European nations to join NATO, how do we know that Putin wouldn't break that agreement?

[voxun]

27 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Maybe....

Then again, even if NATO did agree to not allow Ukraine or any other nearby European nations to join NATO, how do we know that Putin wouldn't break that agreement?

I could be wrong on this but I believe we had an agreement with Russia and we kindoff broke the agreement.

[Spence94]

1 hour ago, voxun said:

This hole thing could have been avoided if the west listened to Russia's concerns regarding nato expansion.

Now obviously I am against this war or any war for that matter.

Ultimately I think the military industrial complex got exactly what they wanted. 

A cold war scenario and billions of potential profits.

There is also a lot of double standards from the west as we have started wars and killed people but we're acting like we haven't.

@voxun All in the name of Freedom bro. Freedom...

 

[Gesundheit2]

By the way, the sanctions are useless in practice. The only purpose they may serve is to hurt the Russian people economically, which in turn could make them angry so they would rally against their government, or at least the war. But I don't see that happening. In practice, the Russian government will continue as if nothing has happened, but the Russian people will suffer the cost.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Hardkill]

12 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

By the way, the sanctions are useless in practice. The only purpose they may serve is to hurt the Russian people economically, which in turn could make them angry so they would rally against their government, or at least the war. But I don't see that happening. In practice, the Russian government will continue as if nothing has happened, but the Russian people will suffer the cost.

That’s why the Russian oligarchs need to be heavily sanctioned.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Hardkill

[Spence94]

@Gesundheit2

21 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

By the way, the sanctions are useless in practice. The only purpose they may serve is to hurt the Russian people economically, which in turn could make them angry so they would rally against their government, or at least the war. But I don't see that happening. In practice, the Russian government will continue as if nothing has happened, but the Russian people will suffer the cost.

"Sanctions? Putin laugh at your sanctions!" - A Ukrainian civilian soldier preparing for war in Kyiv.

[tsuki]

2 hours ago, Hardkill said:

Maybe....

Then again, even if NATO did agree to not allow Ukraine or any other nearby European nations to join NATO, how do we know that Putin wouldn't break that agreement?

We would know that if we were genuinely interested what constitutes "national interest" in Putin's eyes, which by the way is the definition of a good relationship/alliance.

[Blackhawk]

3 hours ago, voxun said:

This hole thing could have been avoided if the west listened to Russia's concerns regarding nato expansion.

Haven't you learned that everything which Putin says is a lie?

He didn't invade because of the Nato thing, that was just a pretext. Ukraine wasn't even close to becoming a Nato member anyway.

And his demands was impossible to grant anyway, and he knew it.

 

"Putin nurses a deep sense of grievance over the loss of Russia’s power and influence since the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991. Ukraine was formerly part of the Soviet Union but declared its independence in 1991.

Having a prosperous, modern, independent and democratic European state bordering Russia was perceived as posing a threat to Russia’s autocratic regime. If Ukrainians succeeded in fully reforming their country along lines of other western democracies, it would set a bad precedent for former Soviet countries and serve as an example for Russians who want a more democratic country."

https://theconversation.com/why-did-russia-invade-ukraine-faqs-about-the-conflict-that-has-shocked-the-world-177963

[Blackhawk]

3 hours ago, voxun said:

I could be wrong on this but I believe we had an agreement with Russia and we kindoff broke the agreement.

Yes you are wrong.

[tsuki]

32 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Haven't you learned that everything which Putin says is a lie?

No, I haven't. What you are proposing is to stop listening to what he has to say. You are painting him basically as a devious animal that has the destruction of the world in mind. I think that his ambitions are much more modest.

He wants a second alliance to counter NATO's and EU dominance, but he's not going to give economical incentives to join, but will use force to coerce other nations that he deems ideologically/ethnically similar. He will spin a narrative along the lines of "We Russians should stick together" and expect other countries to follow. Either willingly (Belarus), or not (Ukraine).

Obviously, red thinking is shining through, but what I'm seeing here so far is that the proposed solution is simply "he's a madman, we should sanction him", or "he wants war so he shall have one". This solution is only going to bring more destruction and suffering. You cannot fight red out of being red, nor can you effectively punish it.

What I am proposing is that we should somehow accept Russia's existence and stage of development and learn to cope with it. I myself still struggle with seeing them as mentally disabled to some degree, but there has to be a way to make peace with their way of thinking and a way to effectively communicate.

What I am definitely not going to do is to join the narrative of "Russians are stupid/Putin is having a seizure", because it completely blocks any opportunity to learn from this difficult time. And I am not saying this lightly like some of you may, I live in Poland, which has first row view of the things that happen in Ukraine.

Edited March 2, 2022 by tsuki

[Blackhawk]

@tsuki I think you are naive/gullible, but okay. Maybe you'll change your mind if he invades a second country. Or starts carpet bombing entire cities in Ukraine. We'll see.

My stance is this: Putin and Kremlin are evil. They lie and lie and create narratives and you guys are buying it all. You are naive/gullible.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Blackhawk

[tsuki]

And just to be clear, I think that the idea of forcing other nations to join an alliance is astronomically stupid. I know that because I personally was the receiving end of such an idea, as well as my country in the past. As far as I know, Russia never had the opportunity to see how the other end works, so it is not too surprising to me that they think that this is a good idea.

But frankly, I'm not sure whether or not they learned from the fall of the Soviet Union. Maybe they have to try construct it for the second time just to learn this lesson?

[tsuki]

3 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

@tsuki I think you are naive, but okay.

Maybe I am. Thank you for not forcing me into changing my views, but talking with me instead.

[Ryan_047]

39 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Either willingly (Belarus)

This right here shows you don't know anything about Belarus. The people of Belarus have fought Lukashenko's dictatorship for a long time now. I recommend the book: Belarus: The last European Dictatorship. 

Also Ukraine had a pro Russian leadership before 2014. The only difference between Ukraine and Belarus, is that the Ukrainians actually managed to throw out Putin's puppet regime in Ukraine and actually have free elections, while the Belarus people did not succeed. 

[tsuki]

14 minutes ago, Ryan_047 said:

This right here shows you don't know anything about Belarus.

Tone your rhetoric down, you know nothing about me.

14 minutes ago, Ryan_047 said:

The people of Belarus have fought Lukashenko's dictatorship for a long time now. I recommend the book: Belarus: The last European Dictatorship. 

In dictatorial states, "the people" don't make decisions. In dictatorial states, the government is the country, hence "willingly".

[Ryan_047]

4 minutes ago, tsuki said:

In dictatorial states, the government is the country, hence "willingly".

You are just suiting words to fit your narrative. That's not the definition of government, nor the definition of country. These are 2 separate terms for a good reason. 

6 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Tone your rhetoric down, you know nothing about me.

Then prove you actually know more about the subject other than Russian propaganda, cause I haven't asked anything personal about you, I'm interested in your knowledge regarding this subject and its derivates. Taking Putin's words for truth is the same as taking's Joe Biden's words for truth. Taking Russia Today too seriously is the same as taking CNN too seriously. Many people here out of pure spite for the West (and by the way, lots of spite should be had against the West, don't get me wrong) took the words of Putin way too seriously and thought that they are smart, and that they understand the Russian pov fully and concluded that what Putin is doing is justified. It's no different than the people that think EU and NATO are the ultimate good and that Russia should be ultimately crushed financially.

I don't want to compare Putin to Hitler, because I genuinely think they are not the same (consequently their regimes) once you know their backgrounds and upbringing. However, I'm going to draw a brutal and exaggerated parallel just so you understand what I think many people on this forum are actually doing (which I also think stems a lot from what Leo said weeks ago about Putin, how he is calculated, rational and how Russia was abused and whatnot. Many people here just found ways to align with his view instead of actually trying to study the history and motives behind all this.). 

Imagine you are living in the generation of your grandparents or grand-grandparents.

Nazi Germany invades Poland in 1939 - people here: "Look, nobody in the West are saying how the Nazis had a good casus belli for the war, the Poles attacked a German radio station for no reason! They also promised Polish independence in WW1, and they got it afterwards!" 

Nazi Germany invades Benelux and France in 1940 - people here: "Yeah, but France always was a dick to Germany/old German states and you just don't want them to go directly against the Maginot line, that would cause too many casualties. They had to go through Belgium so that they could avoid too many casualties! Look, Goebles points out all of the abuses that Germany endured because of the Versailles Treaty, there has to be some truth in what the Propaganda Minister says." 

"The Allied cause is covered too much by the media, let's see what valid motives the Nazi regime has to murder and abuse millions by taking seriously their lunatic leader and their propaganda papers!" (this is not to say that there is/was no propaganda on the other side btw)

I could go on and make so more exaggerated comparisons but you get the idea. I'm also not attacking you, and I apologize if you bad in any way. I'm talking against propaganda, misinformation and bad interpretations of past events.  

[Andyforreal]

5 hours ago, voxun said:

I could be wrong on this but I believe we had an agreement with Russia and we kindoff broke the agreement.

NATO broke serval agreements, Putin was explaining it few years ago on an interview in USA, also there are documents about it, Russia wanted to join NATO in the 90s there's a declassified document that u can find about it also, but I think what broke Putin was the new Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy he's leaning more towards EU while the last presidents were leaning towards Russia

That's why I personally don't pick any political sides, everyone lies everyone

 

And for those people here im against war and against killing innocent people, whatever I wrote doesn't justify war

 

[somegirl]

@Blackhawk Yes everyone is wrong, you are only right.