By treating Russia as a pariah, we painted ourselves into a corner

[Danioover9000]

@hello1234

   So you want everyone to agree with your perspective, and you want a debate?

[hello1234]

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

So you want everyone to agree with your perspective, and you want a debate?

I don’t want my arguments to be dismissed instead of being addressed.

Edited March 1, 2022 by hello1234

[Preety_India]

34 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Preety_India

   Just like you stated in another thread, about nuclear warfare, what you would do. You're don't have preferences for fighting and killing, so you prefer to hide and shelter in a bunker. But another person might love fighting and killing, and would be out there at the forefront fighting. That thought and feeling is self bias. You were basically having a preference against some elements of stage red in that hypothetical.

   It's also a psychological development modal, so self bias is in it.

Yes I agree with this. Self bias becomes a thorn when we think of stage Red 

 

[Danioover9000]

@hello1234

8 minutes ago, hello1234 said:

I don’t want my arguments to be dismissed instead of being addressed.

   Why do you want to debate, instead of having a discourse?

[Scholar]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Maybe you should consider the possibility that Putin is actually looking out for the security of his country.

I know, that's crazy, right?

Like... there's no way Putin could have legitimate national security concerns. That's impossible.

That doesn't mean is isn't delusional, that doesn't mean he has no ego and that doesn't mean he is acting in the actual interest of the russian people.

Hitler also thought he was looking out for the security of his country and the human race, doesn't really change the facts that what he did lead to the destruction of his people.

 

A more conscious politician would have not initiated war and would have actually had his people's interests in mind. Putin is highly nationalistic, the main motivation for why he did this was that he desires Russia to be a powerful country, and he wants to be the one who made it happen and changed the legacy of his nation forever, no matter the cost. He refuses to align his nation with the actual place it holds in the world order, and rather bathes in nostalgic visions of a russia that is in any way a significant actor on the world stage. That time is over, and the more he will resist reality, the more his people will suffer for it.

 

Putin is not really as smart as you seem to think. He is not only incredibly deluded about the proper position of the russian state, but also incompetent in regards to leading a nation in a military conflict. Everything he did so far precisely achieved the opposite of any supposed goals he might have had. He woke the EU from it's lethargic slumber and actually lead to a unification of the western nations. Everything he did so far compromised national interests, and any amount of moralistic justification for what he did will not change that.

 

Putin acts in the same way in the interests of his nation as Trump does, just that he is not as blantatly a charlatan as his US counterpart.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

3 minutes ago, Scholar said:

That doesn't mean is isn't delusional, that doesn't mean he has no ego and that doesn't mean he is acting in the actual interest of the russian people.

Hitler also thought he was looking out for the security of his country and the human race, doesn't really change the facts that what he did lead to the destruction of his people.

 

A more conscious politician would have not initiated war and would have actually had his people's interests in mind. Putin is highly nationalistic, the main motivation for why he did this was that he desires Russia to be a powerful country, and he wants to be the one who made it happen and changed the legacy of his nation forever, no matter the cost. He refuses to align his nation with the actual place it holds in the world order, and rather bathes in nostalgic visions of a russia that is in any way a significant action on the world stage. That time is over, and the most he will resist reality, the more his people will suffer for it.

 

Putin is not really as smart as you seem to think. He is not only incredibly deluded about the proper position of the russian state, but also incompetent in regards to leading a nation in a military conflict. Everything he did so far precisely achieved the opposite of any supposed goals he might have had. He woke the EU from it's lethargic slumber and actually lead to a unification of the western nations. Everything he did so far compromised national interests, and any amount of moralistic justification for what he did will not change that.

   That does not mean that it justifies condemnation with little awareness of one's self and cultural bias. That also does not mean that the consciousness level of a politician is seperate from the consciousness level of the group/country and collective that that which that individual comes from.

   Just because Hitler was at the forefront of the Nazi party, doesn't mean he is the only central problem. A figure head and mouth piece is not the main issue, it's the monster puppeteers behind the person that infected him with their mind virus.

[Scholar]

9 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   That does not mean that it justifies condemnation with little awareness of one's self and cultural bias. That also does not mean that the consciousness level of a politician is seperate from the consciousness level of the group/country and collective that that which that individual comes from.

   Just because Hitler was at the forefront of the Nazi party, doesn't mean he is the only central problem. A figure head and mouth piece is not the main issue, it's the monster puppeteers behind the person that infected him with their mind virus.

I disagree, I think another leader with different dispositions would have not acted in the way Putin did. You have a very one-sided view of the world. The unique personalities and mind-sets of individuals, especially world leaders, have a tremendous impact on the trajectory of the world. Of course Putin was only elected because his people were on a certain level of consciousness, and this incident will serve well to show them their own limitations. But that doesn't mean that Putin has no responsibility nor that he is a prime cause for this conflict. A pure geopolitical analysis is not sufficient to explain state-action.

And I agree, the people of russia will have to suffer for this significantly, as they have allowed for Putin to exist for such a long time. They need to see the limitation of their level of consciousness, and sadly the situation demands for it to have happened that way.

 

I would not bring moralism into whether or not people will condemn Putin. Putin will be condemned and that will serve an essential function for the evolution of human-kind. It serves little good to just protect Putin for the sake of being "unbiased", as that itself constitutes a bias aswell. A bias that if we just follow unconsciously will lead to delusion aswell. This is one of the limitations of higher levels of consciousness.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Scholar

[Fleetinglife]

What Russian military is now trying to do to Kharkiv is what not long ago, 22 years or so, the NATO air bombing campaign did to villages and cities across Serbia and Kosovo alike. 

We know today that the aim was not just the targeting, neutralizing and elimination of key strategic and economic infrastructure that helped and provided assistance for the goals of the regime in FRY Serbia, effectively controlled and appropriated by ethnonational communist usurper and dictator Slobodan Milosevich, and  operations and war effort Army of Yugoslavia (Serbian military) effectively in large part under the control of army personnel and staff loyal to him against the Kosovar Albanian insurgency and it's attempt of persecution and ethnic cleansing of Serbian minority there living in Kosovo via KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army) and the, UN and ICTY tribunal recognised, joint criminal enterprise of war crimes, atrocities, ethnic cleansings, attempt of culturocide of Albanian and Ottoman Islamic cultural heritages present in Kosovo and genocidal instances carried out mostly by the Serb conscripts and recruits in the mostly at the time Serb filled Army of Yugoslavia but also, not at small or insignificant and not less brutal part, carried out against the Serb minority in Kosovo by ethonationalist and Albanian supremacist KLA insurgents, who were it was later revealed receiving help and part of their funds from illegal activities such as narcotraficking by not small and insignificant part of their Albanian supporters in Europe (at the time they even coined in the new term, on par with the corpus of new terms originating and being repopularized, developed and used en masse as result from the Yugoslav wars experience such as "ethnic cleansing", "narcoterrorism" forced desperately adopted for military funds, military strategy and tactics by some writers, authors about and observers of the nature of that conflict there) not an insignificant presence of influential Albanian lobbyists for the Albanian nationalist cause, through its relatively large existing diaspora in the West and Western nations at that time in comparison to ther people's in the Balkans, in American politics exclusively to reconsidering US's state up until then stances and positions towards viewing more favorably, cooperation and legitimising of the KLA as an organisation, it's insurgency/ressistance methods and its stated political goals and were also provided intelligence assistance and military funding by BND - West (then Unified) German state intelligence agencies who helped them (this was clearly admitted by German journalists who investigated this issue at the time and later) and who deployed terrorist tactics against Serbian civilians, police and armed forces alike in order to cleanse them or eliminate their presence from Kosovo completely in order to have it Albanian dominated. 

NATO then looked at this whole mess of a situation and fueling of horrible humanitarian atrocities and war crimes on all sides and decided that it needed to find the pretext in some carried out atrocities against civilians, like it did in Bosnia and Herzegovina 4 years before, in order to have a justification in the media to it's public why it needed to launch a full-scale air bombing campaign and raid against Serbia, and to wreck its all key strategic and economic infrastructure in order to force a halt to the war effort and ongoing conflict down in Kosovo, and also later discovered, through the deployment of some if its stored depleted uranium and cluster bombs from the Gulf War in the operation to demoralise, psychologicaly defeat and deliberately attempt to lessen/reduce the numbers of the Serb population in Serbia if the conflict would be ongoing for longer in order to pre-emptively stop fears circulating of it's possible future colonisation and resettlement in some of their former lands in Kosovo or lands and property that were left behind by the Albanian refugees from the war, which most of them later returned to, after the the war was finished, and Serbia capitulated in it's operation and a ceasefire and peace agreement was signed between it, KLA representatives and all NATO countries known as the Kumanovo Accords (basically a more unfavourable rehash of Rambouillet offer/contained ultimatum for mandatory democratic referendum to be held in Kosovo for its status in  years before the aerial bombardment). 

NATO in order to achieve all this and facilitate the planting of one of the largest US military bases in Europe, to act as further connecting tissue to NATOs defensive shield against the potential future rearising of the geopolitical threat of Russia for European stability, for some reason in the Balkans, in Kosovo, and in turn to turn into an American and German protectorate, client state, that has less independence in its economy and decision making then a US federal state such as Texas, went on to wreck, at the time FRY Serbia's economy and infrastructure to such a degree that the damaged estimated, by some economists from the Serbian (Western funded) NGO group of economists the G17 at the time and other regional non-Serb economists, by that single,  "only sole humanitarian bombing campaign and intervention", was in some estimates from 30 to 50 bilion dollars (some higher estimates even say 100 billion dollars due to the long term economic halt caused) in economic damages, from infrastructural repairs to heavy damage sustained to important economic and even landmark and cultural objects, a calculated whole of several yearly annual GDPs loss for the whole of Serbia and it's population and at the time Kosovo combined for a few years, inflicted upon a small, several million population country in the south east of Europe, effectively third worldising the country in comparison to it's comparatively close to European standards, during its high points, decade and a half earlier, in the Yugoslav times. 

Did the EU and NATO then at least try to foster the historic reconciliation with Serbia, by atleast attempting in trying for a bit to help its economy slowly and steadily go back up, via some favourable economic aid package, and speed up its integration into the Western economic and security architecture together with Kosovo in order solve that thorn in it's side in it's wider EE and Balkan security architecture for dettering the geopolitical rearise of Russia?

No it proceeded to unilaterally recognise Kosovo's proclaimed independence and effectively halted Serbia's EU integration, thus Kosovo's as well, which support was at the all time high among the population, well over 50%, who wanted a quick out of solution, to the long proceeding economic crisis and stagnation in the country in 2008. by circling it and side lining and declaring Kosovo independent in order to start building it's NATO/US protectorate and station there, as well as continue nation building in Afghanistan against the rearise of the Russian geopolitical threat in Europe and the Chinese one in Central Asia, dealing the finishing move with that and solidfying in the long term, I would personally assess a few decades more, the average Serb's alienation from them, to NATO the most of all. 

You can thus see from this stated historical evidence from the Serbian experience, that NATO appears as a very self-interested and self-serving profit generating organisation based on the pretext of a geopolitical threat existing against the US military and the  Russian geopolitical threat in Europe, that only cares about obfuscating UNSC resolutions and international law for R2P justification reasons for wide humanitarian, civilian saving, war crime, attrocity and genocide prevention reasons and carry out military interventions, missions and operations only when it is seen in the long term profitable for them to go out of their way in doing so and if it serves their long term, strategical and geopolitical goals of doing so for the US defense industry, and its crucial missions for forwarding it's global military and economic alignment strategic goals, that fills and shares/the large part of the NATO budget for all these countries that are members of the organisation. 

Primacy of overall preconditions for the alignmemt of multiple layers of self-interest in an endeavour over principled global humanitarian/sanction stances in all situations where it is warranted in the world as the Serbian refugees from Croatia and Palestinians in Syria and Rwandans and East Timorese knew and felt in the 90s where they also suffered, some to a much more worse, horrible, unjustified, unwarranted and unprovoked atrocious degree than others it is understood of course , authoritarian abuse of their basic human rights by some open authoritarian, religious and ethnic supremacist regimes and countries, and some that are still treated nominally as civilised democracies with no regime in charge in actuality, by large swathes of the international community whose interests aligned with it and are to a degree complicit in it's oppression, discrimination and basic human rights crimes and abuses. 

Note: All of what I have written here can be found on sourced Wikipedia links and articles if one bothers do that a proper, through independent research on this topic if one is actually interested in grasping and understanding this event and not scoring cheap political or personal snipes based on one's caricatured, lazily unresearched, deeply ignorant and stereotypical beliefs about what the other person beliefs, knowledge and stances regarding this issue are, that he/she is discussing this issue with or attempting to communicate something about it or engage in some form of dialogue with, and not jump to the first conclusions he/she wants to believe about it by linking only sentences or paragraphs from one page, not bothering to checking links or sources leading to other pages about other subjects and topics connected to it, on this interconnected issue often times deliberately separated from the wider contexts in that situation because that alligns with his/her already pre-conceived notions, prior beliefs and biases he/she intentionally and unintentionally wants to still hold and abide by to some extent for various reasons because of the norms existing in his society regarding somethings existing within these issues and very, complex layered event that showed and underscored various issues, hypocrisies and hypocritical stances, inconveniences and inconsistentcues existing in our world. 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Fleetinglife

[tsuki]

@hello1234 Nobody is going to babysit you through your bullshit and close-mindendess. Keep quiet and learn from others, that is the only way forward.

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Fleetinglife said:

What Russian military is now trying to do to Kharkiv is what not long ago, 22 years or so, the NATO air bombing campaign did to villages and cities across Serbia and Kosovo alike. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War

[tsuki]

@Fleetinglife Please use punctuation in your posts. Your latest one was interesting but it defeated me halfway through.

[lostingenosmaze]

@tsuki @Fleetinglife I was about to say, I count seven whole run-on sentences in that post

 

[Preety_India]

4 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@Fleetinglife Please use punctuation in your posts. Your latest one was interesting but it defeated me halfway through.

Lmao .. I read his posts and fall asleep midway. 

 

[somegirl]

9 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War

Wait, so you are justifying the bombing of innocent serbian people who have nothing to do with war and were just living their normal everyday lives, just like you are living one today?

[Michael569]

14 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Nobody is going to babysit you through your bullshit and close-mindendess. Keep quiet and learn from others, that is the only way forward.

Let's try to be tolerant & inclusive of other people's opinions and worldviews even when they collide with our own. Thanks!

[tsuki]

YouTube keeps sending me gems/fuel:

https://youtube.com/shorts/nmjCu5HYGk0?feature=share

Edited March 1, 2022 by tsuki

[PurpleTree]

15 minutes ago, somegirl said:

Wait, so you are justifying the bombing of innocent serbian people who have nothing to do with war and were just living their normal everyday lives, just like you are living one today?

i knew you were serb  

i know many kosovars, croats etc. so i grew up knowing about that conflict and the atrocities.

which might be a bit one sided info i got there were atrocities on both sides.

but it had to be stopped imo.  it's one of the few NATO interventions i mostly agree with from the info i have.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by PurpleTree

[tsuki]

https://youtube.com/shorts/x_kklaLR5E0?feature=share

[Fleetinglife]

5 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War

Did you read the whole of the Wikipedia linked articles that are plentiful in that page of what was the lead up to those events and massacres, war crimes, genocides etc.

Are you just going to engage in the triggered out of context, shallow knowledge guilt tripping and shame inducing tactics fed by your training of thinking about those events by consumption of one sided media framing of those events? 

While not bothering to do any independent thinking, reading or research about those historical events outside that?

Come off with a prejudiced, stereotypical assumption that anything I wrote from above was an attempt of war crime revision or genocide denial by a caricature figure you constructed in your mind of projecting onto me your belief of a sneaky ulterior motivé of Serbian ethnonationalism or Ukranian humanitarian atrocities happening right now lessening, denying and/or trolling propagation for the Russian side through the criticism of NATO through the Serb experience I wrote from above. 

Tell me, what country are your from and who did you vote for in the last election?

Mind due with anything you try to explain to me about your decision making, view and prism about that from your living experience on that topic I will link a sourced Wikipedia article or page of perhaps something unrelated about that political party and person in an attempt to call out your imagined ulterior motives that you have regarding that and to create a stereotyped imaged of you as a shady person as well. 

That is the peak of lazy, negative mind addiction and asinine thinking and distancing oneself sneakily by a repeatition of shallow balkanism stereotypes of people, most of them debunkable and old at this point but repeated and parroted in the media without thinking to the audience about why/how the Balkans have to be underdeveloped, poor and primitive because of these past things in order for them to feel good about themselves and deflect that they have zero complicity or responsibility for that, which can be in fact easily traced, if one bothers to do the research from sources that are not biased towards the narratives of ones official countries story, narrative and interest regarding the region, a non-complete story is told with missing parts, half truths, about the other he is trying to engage in a conversation with, a gaze which sees evil everywhere contains in fact evil in itself which it is so self-biased and self-absorbed to see it clearly, to paraphrase Hegels quote, in the context of what ammounted of what you just attempted in doing here. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Fleetinglife

[somegirl]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

but it had to be stopped imo.  it's one of the few NATO interventions i agree with.

Are you for real?

You agree with civilians being killed? Ordinary people who didn't want any war?