By treating Russia as a pariah, we painted ourselves into a corner

[vizual]

I read about a 60km long Russian convoy on its way in Ukraine, plus Belarusian troops invading as well. If this is all true it’s going to get even crazier, thousands of people will die in the coming days. I wonder how long Kiev will hold up.

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Hansyman77 said:

Putin needs to stop

we need to kidnap world leaders like putin and plug them psychedelics until they're "normal"

 

[Ryan_047]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Corruption is rampant in Russia. It would exist even if Putin were killed. That's just the level of development of the country.

I think Navalny has some good points but he is also not appreciating the complexities of running a country like Russia.

I think Putin is corrupt but there is no way to get power in Russia otherwise, and I think Putin is not just in this for money or power. I think he also genuinely cares about creating a strong Russia. He doesn't want to allow NATO to bend Russia over a barrel.

So the only solution for Russia is to be an oligarchy ruled by a Putin like figure? Cause if some major shake up will not happen, nothing will ultimately change in Russia. I'm really curios if the current riots in Russia will brutally fuck up Putin and his oligarchs' regime. 

The current level of corruption in Russia is similar to the Eastern European countries after the fall of communism. Their major shake up was bashing communism out (sometimes violently) and joining EU, and not even all of them succeeded. The corruption in those countries is still quite high, but nowhere as bad as it was or compared to Russia. I'm not saying that they should necessarily join EU (though I would be extremely happy if they did), but I don't see how having a fascist dictator is longer beneficial to an increasingly progressive movement in Russia's youth (a considerable percentage of them even migrating to EU and US). Even the middle aged people start to find him repulsive. 

There needs to be a change otherwise Russia will surely continue to fall economically long term, and thus suffer even more. Don't throw the "USA raped Russia in the 90s" argument my way. Yes, it did and did it badly. But that doesn't mean that the same would happen today (way different circumstances) and that EU and US would throw Russia into the grave by robbing it. We need a strong and just Russian Federation which could efficiently keep USA in check, not this sad joke-fascist oligarchy that is supporting extreme populist right-wing parties/movements across Europe just to cause instability and promote the "EU bad cause stage green" narrative. 

Many, many people though that the Zionist movement will ultimately fail, and yet we have a Jewish state today (yes, I know the implications and consequences of that, it's just an example). It's not impossible for Russia to move into stage orange-green and be a just force geopolitically or even surpass Europe and the USA in development. For that, Putin is not suited. I said it before and I'll say it again, and I know it's against your opinion, but in my opinion Putin's Russia survival agenda IS NOT Russia's survival agenda. A bit idealistic sure, but it's realistic. 

What do you think Russia has to do next? 

[Danioover9000]

@PurpleTree

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

Do you condemn Putin and his war/attack on the Ukraine though?

   I condemn Putin and his strategic decision of war against Ukraine.

   However,I make this condemnation knowing that I'm biased against stage red, against Russia because my worldview and indoctrination stems from the western world and western cultures/values, that my cognitive and moral development is higher than the majority of Russians and Putin's, that my personality type allows it, that my states of consciousness and being allows me to safely condemn his actions, that my level of empathy has a limit to even this, and that my general and specific life experiences and domains of mastery are such that there's too much of a difference between my life experiences versus that of Putin's and the average low/mid/upper class Russian.

   How many people are willing enough to say these disclaimers before going down an emotional outrage against this situation,  that they are biased with their condemnation? Close to zero, and even more so when face to face with other people. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Danioover9000

[hello1234]

2 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

This post is blatant Russophobia/Racism.

America got to where it is through killing and stealing.

I put down that image to make a point.

Did you ever hear of Holodomor? Do you think russia got to be that big by handing flowers?

Edited March 1, 2022 by hello1234

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

How many people are willing enough to say thhese disclaimers before going down an emotional outrage against this situation,  that they are biased with their condemnation? Close to zero, and even more so when face to face with other people. 

How are you biased if you're against stage Red? 

[hello1234]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

 

   Everyone, this here is a great example of what stage green looks like when triggered.

Said stage orange. I am not stage green, I never considered myself to be, more of stage yellow, but this situation needs stage green, - hello? Remember this? Which stage is this? Yellow has integrated green in it. That is why yellow will not be heartlessly trying to defend terrorism for the sake of dialogue - orange will.

Edited March 1, 2022 by hello1234

[Danioover9000]

@hello1234

1 minute ago, hello1234 said:

I am not stage green, I never considered myself to be, more of stage yellow, but this situation needs stage green, - hello? Remember this? Which stage is this? 

   

[hello1234]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@hello1234 I'm not going to engage you any more because your mind is not open on this matter.

You are not interested in genuine understanding, you are here to defend a survival-based position.

I am sorry but this classic Leo, are you interested in changing your position? Whenever you get cornered you just gaslight. Everyone sane on this forum knows this and noticed this.

This is the same line you use when women call you out on your sexism, survival gaslighting - you dismiss everything they say as false with these survival claims.

Edited March 1, 2022 by hello1234

[Danioover9000]

@Preety_India

4 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

How are you biased if you're against stage Red? 

   Just like you stated in another thread, about nuclear warfare, what you would do. You're don't have preferences for fighting and killing, so you prefer to hide and shelter in a bunker. But another person might love fighting and killing, and would be out there at the forefront fighting. That thought and feeling is self bias. You were basically having a preference against some elements of stage red in that hypothetical.

   It's also a psychological development modal, so self bias is in it.

[Preety_India]

10 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

However,I make this condemnation knowing that I'm biased against stage red, against Russia because my worldview and indoctrination stems from the western world and western cultures/values, that my cognitive and moral development is higher than the majority of Russians and Putin's, that my personality type allows it, that my states of consciousness and being allows me to safely condemn his actions, that my level of empathy has a limit to even this, and that my general and specific life experiences and domains of mastery are such that there's too much of a difference between my life experiences versus that of Putin's and the average low/mid/upper class Russian.

Do you then sympathize with Putin? 

 

[Danioover9000]

@hello1234

1 minute ago, hello1234 said:

I am sorry but this classic Leo, are you interested in changing your position? Whenever you get cornered you just gaslight. Everyone sane on this forum knows this and noticed this.

   Yes, everyone here knows and notices your getting too emotionally triggered and defensive to talk about the Ukraine/Russia conflict. Who wants to engage with someone who is too defensive and close minded to not consider both sides of the issue and more, and have hostile language?

   If you can't learn to be open minded, be open to learning from different perspectives, tone down your hostile language, be less dogmatic and debatable and more conversational and discursive, and behave yourself, then don't be surprised when you get kicked out. Leo gave you fair warnings before.

[Dryas]

1 hour ago, somegirl said:

I'm just pointing out NATO's hypocrisy. Because they also bombed innocent civilians not long ago.

"NATO's intervention was prompted by Yugoslavia's bloodshed and ethnic cleansing of Albanians, which drove the Albanians into neighbouring countries and had the potential to destabilize the region. Yugoslavia's actions had already provoked condemnation by international organisations and agencies such as the UN, NATO, and various INGOs."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

 

[Danioover9000]

@Preety_India

6 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Do you then sympathize with Putin? 

 

   Not absolutely sympathize with him, I can understand and sympathize 20% of what he is in terms of the other factors involved, but I mostly don't sympathize with him overall.

   More important is empathy than sympathy. I have some empathy, but not enough to be blindsided. Do you also sympathise or empathize with what he's doing, at least in the understanding level?

[Loving Radiance]

4 hours ago, Marv said:

Why did I even decide to join a discussion on this forum, I did this for 5 minutes now and I am already infuriated. This is like twitter, Jesus Christ.

Notice that it's a minority of users that lead you to feel infuriated.

If you are open for a suggestion, I myself make generous use of the ignore function here when I notice people being not openminded. It keeps me sane and I can choose when to let in comments which are for example emotionally charged.

With time you can sense which users are open and which one's are not. Don't bother much with those who are not open. Engaging with them is not helping them and it takes your time & energy.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Loving Radiance

[itachi uchiha]

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Preety_India

   Not absolutely sympathize with him, I can understand and sympathize 20% of what he is in terms of the other factors involved, but I mostly don't sympathize with him overall.

   More important is empathy than sympathy. I have some empathy, but not enough to be blindsided. Do you also sympathise or empathize with what he's doing, at least in the understanding level?

i think he's acting nuts. Putin was actually doing pretty good in Europe. Many respected him.

He was delivering oil/gas. The right wingers loved him, some of the left wingers wanted to have less dependency with the US, less NATO etc.

Many were forgiving of him and understood his fears etc. But he destroyed all that and brought NATO and Europe, US closer together in a few days of attacking Ukraine.

[hello1234]

 

14 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Yes, everyone here knows and notices your getting too emotionally triggered and defensive to talk about the Ukraine/Russia conflict. Who wants to engage with someone who is too defensive and close minded to not consider both sides of the issue and more, and have hostile language?

   If you can't learn to be open minded, be open to learning from different perspectives, tone down your hostile language, be less dogmatic and debatable and more conversational and discursive, and behave yourself, then don't be surprised when you get kicked out. Leo gave you fair warnings before.

And the flying monkeys come to the rescue. 

I think it’s extremely dangerous what he is doing - he is entrenching everyone on this forum with his political views and his biases. 
 

You guys are literally dismissing everything that I am saying and not addressing any of my arguments because you have already labelled me into something, so I can’t be right. Again, it’s this

Edited March 1, 2022 by hello1234

[Danioover9000]

@hello1234

5 minutes ago, hello1234 said:

 

And the flying monkeys come to the rescue. 

I think it’s extremely dangerous what he is doing - he is entrenching everyone on this forum with his political views and his biases. 
 

You guys are literally dismissing everything that I am saying and not addressing any of my arguments because you have already labelled me into something, so I can’t be right. Again, it’s this

   Have you read the forum guidelines, or have you put yourself in your own ignore list, to not notice your are breaking some of those guidelines?

[Hansyman77]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWIYfKWSAxw