By treating Russia as a pariah, we painted ourselves into a corner

[PurpleTree]

it could very well be that putin/russia attacks other countries too after this

[Danioover9000]

 

2 hours ago, hello1234 said:

Putin doesn’t think it’s fair because he wants to rule the world. Russia is not an “underdog” from his POV, Russia is a big powerful nation who “will show them all how tough RUSSIA is”! I am getting tired of your “poor putin” narrative. You never lived through stage red, that’s why you are giving those poor kitten excuses to putin. No, your dad being a con artist didn’t teach you to understand stage red properly - everyone in the soviet unit was a con artist - you have to experience it on a cultural level, a kid who grew up in US will have a massive blind spot towards red that can’t be fixed with theories. 

Putin is stage red. Do you agree that putin is stage red? What does stage red want? Power and dominance. Yet it doesn’t want to earn that power and dominance fairly - by working hard, developing itself, becoming the best at something - it’s entitled to it, it thinks it deserves it as a status quo. 

If he is sane and not delusional, what exactly is stopping him from integrating with the first world countries a little bit? Accept the reality of russia as a third world country (second world in some cities) and roll his sleeves to change something? Make some steps to end the corruptions, fix its legal system.

Do you not consider what russia is doing now with Ukraine a terrorist act? Holding Ukraine hostage, torturing it, to try and get its way? 
 

 

   Everyone, this here is a great example of what stage green looks like when triggered.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Danioover9000

[Andyforreal]

1 hour ago, hello1234 said:

Why should russia have any more influence than it deserves? Why should it have equal amount of influence to the US? How did it earn this balance? 

For example, why should this:

 

have an equal amount of influence to this:

A sad way of looking at things...

[Danioover9000]

   A good analysis of this situation overall:

   Ultimately, depending on your values, cognitive and moral development, personality traits, states of being, and various life experiences, almost every person has different fears.

   To Putin, If Ukraine joined NATO, it's a real and serious threat to Russia, because trying to defend a land invasion from NATO, through Ukraine, is very difficult due to the flat topography. If Ukraine belonged to Russia, Russia establishes a choke point to defend itself from a land invasion.

   You can demonize Putin, but don't lose the understand of his perspective and take for granted what real fear is to him. He is in a state of being and emotion that is fear and insecurity, from potential aggression from NATO, right next to Moscow. It's not a great feeling.

[Inliytened1]

36 minutes ago, Ineedanswers said:

Who are you not going to engage leo?havent you imagined @hello1234? Arent you imagining that hello1234 is not openminded and is defending a survival based position?according to your recent insight isnt it true that hello1234 has no experienes,thoughts of his own?(exactly like the characters in our night dreams). You said exactly this 2hrs 4mins and 30 secs into your solipsism video.if i have misunderstood somethimg i would genuinely love to know.im not trying to be facetious

If you are unwilling to answer the solipsism related question please say "stop" and ill stop asking

Your conflating the Absolute with the relative.   This discussion has nothing to do with the Absolute. 

[Vrubel]

58 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If that is their choice (to keep having a strong will to be with Europe), then they might get crushed for it.

Yeah, but isn't there a limit in how much Putin can crush. Will he start opening up gulags and go back to the Stalin era? 
44 million Ukrainians can do a lot of damage. Without Stalinesque repressions, Putin will be fighting a perpetual war, like in Afghanistan. The West will rain down money and stingers on Ukrainian fighters.

Then there is also the issue of Russian economic ruin. The Russian people (even oligarchs) are also feeling the effects of this war, which only increases discontent. This is yet another giant threat for Putin to deal with.

Russia will either
1. at some point flee away from the Ukraine (much like from Afghanistan)
or 
2. Lay waste to Ukraine. (much like Chechnya but on a more horrid scale)

[BlueOak]

Part of the issue being missed is a non emotional, multi perspective take on Nato too. Its easy to say oh well its in the media. Is it? Where is the really indepth, historical perspective that takes all sides of what is and isn't, what its done to cause suffering as well as stop it. That I can look at? You might find one in a million but it won't be widespread. Because there is obvious fear of, fear from and demonization of Nato too. Almost in every post I respond to seems to have that demonization rather than understanding of where it came from, why it exists and all the benefits that have come out of it, as well as assigning things that simply don't exist to Nato.

You may feel justified in demonizing Nato but you are still doing it. I realised just now that imbalance is what is bugging me here the most. On the other side of course we have nothing but praise or solidarity which right now I understand as its war time. I understand people's wish to demonize the opponents from either side, I also understand their wish to overlook flaws, in or from me and you.

Edited March 1, 2022 by BlueOak

[Danioover9000]

   This thread has everything under the sun, demonising, name calling, blaming, close mindedness. Stage green triggers, not willing to be open or learn from other perspectives.

   This thread has some pretty good examples to study from.

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

   This thread has everything under the sun, demonising, name calling, blaming, close mindedness. Stage green triggers, not willing to be open or learn from other perspectives.

   This thread has some pretty good examples to study from.

I would agree

But I think @hello1234 makes some valid points about Putin.  We have to try and look at this objectively.  And i think we can all agree that he is stage red and wants power.    Leo agreed he is corrupt.

This does not mean that from his POV he does not think he is doing good.  He thinks by creating a powerful Russia that he is doing good..just like Hitler did..not to make that comparison because I concurr with Leo they are not the same character.  

But we need to be objective here and not baby Putin just because he and Russia has their own POV.  If what he is doing is wrong (and we know right and wrong are relative but again here we need to take care of not conflating the relative with the Absolute) then  something needs to be done to protect the collective good.

[somegirl]

4 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

This thread has everything under the sun, demonising, name calling, blaming, close mindedness. Stage green triggers, not willing to be open or learn from other perspectives.

   This thread has some pretty good examples to study from.

+1

I don't know why some close minded people, unwilling to look at things in a more holistic way, are on this Self-development forum. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by somegirl

[BlueOak]

5 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   This thread has everything under the sun, demonising, name calling, blaming, close mindedness. Stage green triggers, not willing to be open or learn from other perspectives.

   This thread has some pretty good examples to study from.

I would be very grateful if would you do my stage green triggers when you see them, Especially if you can act like lego blocks to the missing parts. I have them in me still, I feel them surface and the quicker I see them in the open the easier it is. The unconscious ones are the hardest to learn from and anagonizingly take the longest. I really don't want another lifetime of hitting my head against walls to knock consciousness into myself. 

All the best.

*Oh if I react badly to them when someone does I apologize, but that is often the most helpful.

Edited March 1, 2022 by BlueOak

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, somegirl said:

+1

I don't know why some close minded people, unwilling to look at things in a more holistic way, are on this Self-development forum. 

Do you condemn Putin and his war/attack on the Ukraine though?

[PurpleTree]

Russia getting the big guns out

 

[somegirl]

6 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Do you condemn Putin and his war/attack on the Ukraine though?

Of course. 

I'm just pointing out NATO's hypocrisy. Because they also bombed innocent civilians not long ago. Just like Russia is doing right now.

Both cases are NOT acceptable, so stop defending just one side. NATO has bloody hands as well. They have no credibility to condemn anyone.

Edited March 1, 2022 by somegirl

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, somegirl said:

Of course. 

I'm just pointing out NATO's hypocrisy. Because they also bombed innocent civilians not long ago. Just like Russia is doing right now.

Both cases are NOT acceptable, so stop defending just one side. NATO has bloody hands as well. They have no credibility to condemn anyone.

We all have bloody hands

 

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, somegirl said:

Of course. 

I'm just pointing out NATO's hypocrisy. Because they also bombed innocent civilians not long ago. Just like Russia is doing right now.

Both cases are NOT acceptable, so stop defending just one side. NATO has bloody hands as well.

I don't defend just one side. I'm with you on condemning Bush and Iraq invasion and some NATO interventions. It's a war crime and i want to see Bush etc. in jail. Iraq invasion wasn't NATO btw.

But if you always start talking about NATO, while Russia is attacking a democratic country you just seem like "whataboutism" and trying to deflect from the crime that is happening.

Edited March 1, 2022 by PurpleTree

[BlueOak]

To look at what was being said above on terror, as well as it was dismissed way too easily. Shells are used for terror, to break the morale of defenders, all waring parties do this in some form, intimation, violence, threat of violence, to spread fear and terror. They try and turn the people against their authorities using fear and terror. Its another reason to not want war, ever. The argument is best on how to prevent that from happening, which is why I want to thank @tsuki for his thoughts even if we look at different solutions, I think we have the same goal in mind.

The square being hit is symbolic to the Ukrainian people, it was just hit by a missile strike. That is done for terror. I was about to post the video but its come in above, nice synchronicity.

Edited March 1, 2022 by BlueOak

[somegirl]

29 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I don't defend just one side. 

Not you personally, was talking more generally.

29 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

But if you always start talking about NATO, while Russia is attacking a democratic country you just seem like "whataboutism" and trying to deflect from the crime that is happening.

I just take issue when burglar tells people how wrong it is to break into someone's house. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by somegirl

[PurpleTree]

 

[Hansyman77]

Putin needs to stop