By treating Russia as a pariah, we painted ourselves into a corner

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, hello1234 said:

I might punch them, but would I go ahead and shoot them? No.

This is all relative.

In this case, punching could be invasion while shooting could be launching of nukes.

[Hardkill]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Survival requires taking threats seriously. If you waited for every serious thread to materialize you'd be dumb and dead.

In geo-politics everyone is doing shady things all the time, trying to fuck each other over.

I think they are not similar at all.

Hitler was rabidly ideological.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It would not have cost anything to negotiate a compromise deal. Obviously any deal would only hold if there was never a future invasion.

Russia has been asking for legal promises that Ukraine not join NATO for a decade now. This compromise was not taken seriously, leaving Putin few options.

Just because you don't think Ukraine joining NATO is a big problem doesn't mean it is that way from Russia's POV. It's not a problem for you because you live in the West. But it is a big problem for Putin. It's such a big problem that he was willing to start a war over it. Think about that. Maybe you're not appreciating the depth of the problem.

Some people in the mainstream media are saying that Putin wanting Ukraine to not join NATO because Russia needs it as a buffer zone is a lie just like how the reasons other terrorists and invaders throughout all of history made up all kinds of bullshit excuses for doing what they did simply for the purposes of gaining as much power and wealth as possible.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Hardkill

[Bow24]

@hello1234  Your knowledge on geopolitics seems to be very limited. This video might help you understand the current crisis a little better: 

 

 

4 minutes ago, hello1234 said:

And honestly, whatever US is doing russia is 10 times worse.

 

And after watching this you should probably read up on some US Imperialism over the last couple decades, because you seem to have never heard of Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Vietnam, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Brazil, Venezuela and the dozens of other countries the US has ravaged across the world. Even if Russia killed millions of people in Ukraine now, the US would still have committed far more atrocities than Russia.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Putin wanting Ukraine to not join NATO because Russia needs it as a buffer zone is a lie just like how the reasons other terrorists and invaders throughout all of history made up all kinds of bullshit excuses

I don't think it was a lie.

And terrorists are not lying when they say that they are fighting for sovereignty over their homeland. Terrorists want self-determination, just like every other political party.

[hello1234]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is all relative.

In this case, punching could be invasion while shooting could be launching of nukes.

@Bow24

nope, not playing your mental masturbation games.

[Loba]

@Bow24 Where would a person without much knowledge on geopolitics start?
It's such a vast topic.

[hello1234]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, you should read a biography of Hitler to understand who he was as a person, as a character. Very different from Putin.

This is a whole bunch of nothing. These kind of statements are very dismissive and they don’t address anything. Furthermore this is a perfect example of the burden of proof fallacy. I think these might be useful to you:

Edited March 1, 2022 by hello1234

[Hardkill]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't think it was a lie.

And terrorists are not lying when they say that they are fighting for sovereignty over their homeland. Terrorists want self-determination, just like every other political party.

Well perhaps with terrorists they maybe decided to terrorize other people and countries more so out of revenge for not being able to control the world with their ideology.

Btw, what about the fact that not once in all of history has NATO ever invaded another country? So, isn’t Putin actually getting too paranoid about the idea that one day NATO would or could theoretically invade Russia?

[Hardkill]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is all relative.

In this case, punching could be invasion while shooting could be launching of nukes.

How likely do you think that Putin will fire nukes in Ukraine?

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Well perhaps with terrorists they maybe decided to terrorize other people and countries more so out of revenge for not being able to control the world with their ideology.

It's not merely revenge. They actually seek to establish their own governments and regimes. If allowed, they would do so. They are just usually killed before they can get that far.

Quote

Btw, what about the fact that not once in all of history has NATO ever invaded another country?

NATO supported or at least turned a blind eye to invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc.

Quote

So, isn’t Putin actually getting too paranoid about the idea that one day NATO would or could theoretically invade Russia?

It's not merely about direct invasion. There is a much deeper geo-political and economic game being played. The West basically rules the world and Putin does not think this is fair. From Putin's POV the West is the world bully. Russia is the underdog.

Ukraine is just a proxy for the American lead world order that Putin wants to challenge. This world order can be very exploitative of any countries not part of it.

[Onecirrus]

@Leo Gura Do you think the oligarchs around him still support this war with all the sanctions?

[Hardkill]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not merely revenge. They actually seek to establish their own governments and regimes. If allowed, they would do so. They are just usually killed before they can get that far.

Okay, I can see that as a valid point.

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

NATO supported or at least turned a blind eye to invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc.

Hmm....fair point.

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not merely about direct invasion. There is a much deeper geo-political and economic game being played. The West basically rules the world and Putin does not think this is fair. From Putin's POV the West is the world bully. Russia is the underdog.

But NATO’s main objective has been to simply welcome any country that wants to be a part of them. They’ve made it clear with their terms to never force any other country in the world to either join them or have some kind of democracy.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Hardkill

[hello1234]

48 minutes ago, Bow24 said:

Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Vietnam, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Brazil, Venezuela and the dozens of other countries the US has ravaged across the world.

Russia, the last 30 years

Abkhazia 

Georgia

Tajikistan

Chechnya

Dagestan

Syria

Ossetia

Moldova

Ukraine

Note that you are going back at least 67 years with US. I just listed the last 30 years

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by hello1234

[hello1234]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

NATO supported or at least turned a blind eye to invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc.

You are comparing Ukraine to Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libiya? 

[Spence94]

@Hardkill He doesn't fear a NATO invasion of Russia, that's what the 4500 nuclear warheads are for. He fears western global hegemony, politically, militarily, socially and economically.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Spence94

[Terell Kirby]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

From Putin's POV the West is the world bully. Russia is the underdog.

What about your POV, Leo? I sense a slight push from you to defend Russia's strategy .. this may be in an effort to get others see beyond biases in favor of the USA and their stronghold on geo-politics .. but wanted to be sure.

Putin is also a bully to a degree.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Terell Kirby

[Blackhawk]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Maybe you should consider the possibility that Putin is actually looking out for the security of his country.

I know, that's crazy, right?

Like... there's no way Putin could have legitimate national security concerns. That's impossible.

Can you answer this.. Which country/countries would be the first aggressor and invade Russia?

[actuallyenlightened]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not merely about direct invasion. There is a much deeper geo-political and economic game being played. The West basically rules the world and Putin does not think this is fair. From Putin's POV the West is the world bully. Russia is the underdog.

Is this just a problem with the system in Russia and all of their corruption? The obvious choice would be for Russia to join the West starting as a conservative democracy. They could leverage their natural resources to become wealthy. 

[Spence94]

7 minutes ago, actuallyenlightened said:

Is this just a problem with the system in Russia and all of their corruption? The obvious choice would be for Russia to join the West starting as a conservative democracy. They could leverage their natural resources to become wealthy. 

This problem goes back to the 1917 Russian Revolution. Russia join the west with Putin (a former Soviet Union KGB member who lived through 30 years of Soviet Power) as their president? Not likely. 

[actuallyenlightened]

20 minutes ago, Spence94 said:

This problem goes back to the 1917 Russian Revolution. Russia join the west with Putin (a former Soviet Union KGB member who lived through 30 years of Soviet Power) as their president? Not likely. 

Yeah, it's the whole political structure that's the problem here.

Replacing the old system with a new one can't happen smoothly overnight. Unfortunately the West doesn't current have the foresight to facilitate this in good faith even if the Russian leadership wanted to transform the country (which they don't)