By treating Russia as a pariah, we painted ourselves into a corner

[Preety_India]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Maybe you should consider the possibility that Putin is actually looking out for the security of his country.

I know, that's crazy, right?

Like... there's no way Putin could have legitimate national security concerns.

May I know your opinion on Alexei Navalny's depiction of Putin as an extremely corrupt leader who has betrayed the Russian public and conned them of their money and made himself mega rich? What do you say when people think Putin is one of the most corrupt oligarchs out there. 

And how can someone think Putin really cares about Russia's needs if he siphons off Russian wealth for his own good? 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Preety_India

[hello1234]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

I didn't say that the security of Russia is more important than the security of Ukraine. But from Russia's perspective, it is.

I didn’t say that that’s what you said. I asked if a normal healthy person would think that their country is the Center of the world and have no regard for another country’s rights, rules, laws, humanity. Those don’t exist for putin. 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

May I know your opinion on Alexei Navalny's depiction of Putin as an extremely corrupt leader who has betrayed the Russian public and conned them of their money and made himself mega rich? What do you say when people think Putin is one of the most corrupt oligarchs out there. 

And how can someone think Putin really cares about Russia's needs if he siphons off Russian wealth for his own good?

Corruption is rampant in Russia. It would exist even if Putin were killed. That's just the level of development of the country.

I think Navalny has some good points but he is also not appreciating the complexities of running a country like Russia.

I think Putin is corrupt but there is no way to get power in Russia otherwise, and I think Putin is not just in this for money or power. I think he also genuinely cares about creating a strong Russia. He doesn't want to allow NATO to bend Russia over a barrel.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, hello1234 said:

I asked if a normal healthy person would think that their country is the Center of the world and have no regard for another country’s rights, rules, laws, humanity.

That's exactly how most people and countries operate.

You are not going to care about another country's right, rules, and laws when you perceive them as a serious threat to you.

[hello1234]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is a threat to Russia.

Hm, a threat vs actual bombing ?

Again, if someone is doing shady things, they are going to think everyone else is shady. Which is exactly the case here.

[Preety_India]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Corruption is rampant in Russia. It would exist even if Putin were killed. That's just the level of development of the country.

I think Navalny has some good points but he is also not appreciating the complexities of running a country like Russia.

I think Putin is corrupt but there is no way to get power in Russia otherwise, and I think Putin is not just in this for money or power. I think he also genuinely cares about creating a strong Russia.

Would you then say that there might be similarities between Putin and Hitler? Which one of these would be worse than the other according to you? 

Personally I think Putin is worse than Hitler because Hitler wasn't corrupt. 

 

[Spence94]

@Preety_India The military industrial complex is a multitude of interests which can create the causes and conditions for wars to happen more regularly and more prolonged than necessary. Do the CEOs of these companies and political leaders actually intend to start wars purely to increase share prices and propagate the sale of military equipment? I doubt it.  I think they have good intentions for their actions. Systems inside reality are more complex and co exist with other systems simultaneously.  The word 'Complex' has a lot of relevance here. Theres no one answer as to why this war started or as to why it will continue or as to why it will end.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Spence94

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, hello1234 said:

Hm, a threat vs actual bombing ?

Survival requires taking threats seriously. If you waited for every serious threat to materialize you'd be dumb and dead.

Which in a sense is what happened to Ukraine. Ukraine sat around not taking Russia seriously. If you sit around like a dodo bird, you might get cooked for dinner.

Quote

Again, if someone is doing shady things, they are going to think everyone else is shady. Which is exactly the case here.

In geo-politics everyone is doing shady things all the time, trying to fuck each other over.

9 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Would you then say that there might be similarities between Putin and Hitler? Which one of these would be worse than the other according to you?

I think they are not similar at all.

Hitler was rabidly ideological and racist.

[hello1234]

 

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's exactly how most people and countries operate.

You are not going to care about another country's right, rules, and laws when you perceive them as a serious threat to you.

If you’re extremely low conscious and have no empathy then yes. 

[Spence94]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

. I think he also genuinely cares about creating a strong Russia.

I agree. He sees the expansion of NATO and Ukraine having closer ties to NATO and the EU as a major threat to the strength and prosperity of Russia.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Spence94

[Preety_India]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

I think they are not similar at all.

Hitler was rabidly ideological.

But Hitler had a dream to create a strong Germany. 

Putin wants a strong Russia. 

Why would Hitler be considered worse if his ambitions were equally patriotic? 

 

[hello1234]

His idea of “strong” is an egoic “we’ll show them all” kind. He’s been around for 20+ years, most of them as president, rest as prime minister (even though a part of it was basically him running the show with a temporary puppet to show that russia is “changing hands” and is not a dicktatorship country.

When was the last time you’ve been to russia to see the reality of it’s “welfare”?

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I think he also genuinely cares about creating a strong Russia.

Edited March 1, 2022 by hello1234

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, hello1234 said:

If you’re extremely low conscious and have no empathy then yes. 

Issues of survival trump empathy.

You cannot run national security based on empathy.

3 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

But Hitler had a dream to create a strong Germany. 

Putin wants a strong Russia. 

Why would Hitler be considered worse if his ambitions were equally patriotic?

Well, you should read a biography of Hitler to understand who he was as a person, as a character. Very different from Putin.

[Joel3102]

It’s not just about NATO expansion though, that’s the thing. His speech before the invasion clearly showed that he doesn’t respect Ukraine as a sovereign country, and basically thinks it shouldn’t exist. That isn’t a NATO grievance. 

I think if NATO didn’t expand he would have invaded Ukraine even earlier. All you Putin defenders were saying he wouldn’t invade two weeks ago.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

All you Putin defenders were saying he wouldn’t invade two weeks ago.

It would not have cost anything to negotiate a compromise deal. Obviously any deal would only hold if there was never a future invasion.

Russia has been asking for legal promises that Ukraine not join NATO for a decade now. This compromise was not taken seriously, leaving Putin few options.

Just because you don't think Ukraine joining NATO is a big problem doesn't mean it is that way from Russia's POV. It's not a problem for you because you live in the West. But it is a big problem for Putin. It's such a big problem that he was willing to start a war over it. Think about that. Maybe you're not appreciating the depth of the problem.

[Spence94]

@Joel3102 "Ukraine is the crown jewel of Russia." -Unknown

[hello1234]

9 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

It’s not just about NATO expansion though, that’s the thing. His speech before the invasion clearly showed that he doesn’t respect Ukraine as a sovereign country, and basically thinks it shouldn’t exist. That isn’t a NATO grievance. 

I think if NATO didn’t expand he would have invaded Ukraine even earlier. All you Putin defenders were saying he wouldn’t invade two weeks ago.

I made this comment in another threat:

” Why would russia put its missiles all the way in Cuba? Ukraine is different because it’s already bordering NATO countries. Do you not see the fucking difference? Ukraine wants to integrate more with Europe and the West. Ukraine wants to join NATO. 

 

This is actually interesting, and maybe this is why russia is doing, they knew why they put missiles in Cuba. If you’re doing shady shit, everyone looks like a criminal to you too. 

Don’t compare Ukraine to Libya. Ukraine is a democratic country in Europe, it doesn’t have an unstable fucked up government (note I am not saying it’s not corrupt)
 

Again, joining NATO was not a “move” on russia (highlighting here that Ukraine was not promised to join NATO). Ukrainian people want to integrate with Europe and the West, they want democracy and to develop their economy. Note that the whole thing started in 2014, doing Maydan revolution, when people started protesting because our pro-russian president declined to sign a trading agreement with Europe.

An innocent person is not afraid of police. They want to keep their fucked up shit going.

The problem is that putin doesn’t see Ukraine as an independent country with its own decisions and wants - as you can see per screen shot below. So in his paranoid mind, this was a move on russia. 

And honestly, whatever US is doing russia is 10 times worse. Where would you rather live, in US or russia? This is the question you have to ask yourself.

 

 

By the way, here is the picture of the map of Ukraine in 1919 (to address putins comment above). Stalin destroyed a lot of Ukrainians during Holodomor, my old neighbour was one of the survivors (she watched her 2 parents and 2 brothers starve to death) so I heard about these horrors from a young age. The exact death toll is hard to estimate, but it is going up to 7mil (for comparison Holocaust death toll is around 6 mil) (also look up the world population around that time). Holodomor happened in the Eastern Ukraine. Then they “replaced” that population with Russians.”

Edited March 1, 2022 by hello1234

[John Paul]

@hello1234If you’re extremely low conscious and have no empathy then yes. 

if someone looks like they are about to jump you and youre with your little daughter, are you going to worry about that guys ballsack or face? no 

Edited March 1, 2022 by John Paul

[hello1234]

5 minutes ago, John Paul said:

if someone looks like they are about to jump you and youre with your little daughter, are you going to worry about that guys ballsack or face? no

I might punch them, but would I go ahead and shoot them? No. That’s why you see all those cases in battles where they much rather take captives than kill. Because at the end of the day there is another person there in front of you.

Again, he is bombing Ukraine. He is killing children. Because in his sick head it is still 1939 and he thinks other countries are capable of murdering innocent people like he is. It’s been 83 years since the last world war. The developed world isn’t like that anymore. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by hello1234

[John Paul]

@hello1234 what if he you even suspected due to some kind of cue that he might rape your daughter if you didn't over take him and your mind starts racing "he might have a knife in his coat" you knock him down and it looks like he is going to get up. you wouldn't kick that "scumbag" (perspective) right in his fucking face even though he's down...? wake up bro SURVIVAL even on a global scale