LGBT rights and gay marriage

[Someone here]

It isn't a wonder that the LGBT community has a higher percentage of people that will suffer from a mental health issue, than those that don't belong to the community. Whether it's linked to direct HBT bullying at school which can have a traumatic and lasting impact in to later life, or the more subtle effects caused from HBT language, hiding your identity or being fearful to holding your partner's hand in public. Some people spend years in a workplace without coming out as they fear it may affect their work life - living a lie day to day is both exhausting and stressful.

Do you think marriages between same-sex couples should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages

[PurpleTree]

25 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Do you think marriages between same-sex couples should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages

of course. that's not even a question

[Yarco]

You cant have a meaningful conversation about this topic here, it's an echo chamber in that regard. You will only receive pro-LGBT replies. To believe otherwise is an unacceptable view that violates the rules.

I've received warning points for homophobia and I dont want any more. If anyone opposes gay marriage they're considered homophobic. So how can we even talk about it?

Edited February 26, 2022 by Yarco

[Preety_India]

That's not even a question. It goes without saying that gay people need to be married the same way traditional marriages happen. 

However this probably won't happen in India

Although I'm no expert in gay marriages in India from a legal standpoint, you might need to contact an Indian lawyer in your jurisdiction for this. And they might help you regarding the laws. 

This is still very new in India although I do see greater acceptance over this decade. 

I really don't think that you have to worry too much if you're living in a super urban area in India where most people don't care whatever you do with your life as long as you have the money for all your needs.

As long as you are Indian citizen, BINDASS. 

 

[Someone here]

Perhaps because systems of religion and systems of civil authority often reflect and support each other, the countries that had reached consensus on the issue by the early 2000s tended to have a single dominant religious affiliation across the population; many such places had a single, state-sponsored religion. This was the case in both Iran, where a strong Muslim theocracy had criminalized same-sex intimacy, and Denmark, where the findings of a conference of Evangelical Lutheran bishops (representing the state religion) had helped smooth the way for the first national recognition of same-sex relationships through registered partnerships. In other cases, the cultural homogeneity supported by the dominant religion did not result in the application of doctrine to the civic realm but may nonetheless have fostered a smoother series of discussions among the citizenry: Belgium and Spain had legalized same-sex marriage, for instance, despite official opposition from their predominant religious institution, the Roman Catholic Church.

The existence of religious pluralities within a country seems to have had a less determinate effect on the outcome of same-sex marriage debates. 

[PurpleTree]

4 hours ago, Yarco said:

You cant have a meaningful conversation about this topic here, it's an echo chamber in that regard. You will only receive pro-LGBT replies. To believe otherwise is an unacceptable view that violates the rules.

I've received warning points for homophobia and I dont want any more. If anyone opposes gay marriage they're considered homophobic. So how can we even talk about it?

why would you care what two grown ups do together?

if they want to get married or whatever?

marriage is mostly trash anyway imo so there's that

[Yarco]

5 hours ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

What could even valid anti-LGBT points consist of? I can't think of a single one. Points like "gay parents would affect their children in a negative way" don't even count, as they do not hold water.

 

2 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

why would you care what two grown ups do together?
if they want to get married or whatever?
marriage is mostly trash anyway imo so there's that

Before we can even discuss gay marriage, there are many layers of couched assumptions you're already operating on that need to be discussed and agreed upon first. 

• Is being LGBT something innate that people are born with, is it caused by environmental and social factors, or somewhere in between?

The truth is, we don't know for sure yet. Despite how much the mainstream will push an exclusively "born this way" narrative, the actual scientific studies are much less certain.

"No conclusive evidence supports any one specific cause of homosexuality; however, most researchers agree that biological and social factors influence the development of sexual orientation." https://books.google.ca/books?id=ivALBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA502&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

"The reason some individuals develop a gay sexual identity has not been definitively established" https://books.google.ca/books?id=fofaAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA82&redir_esc=y

"While scientists do not know the exact cause of sexual orientation, they theorize that it is caused by a complex interplay of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences" https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-abstract/113/6/1827/64422/Sexual-Orientation-and-Adolescents?redirectedFrom=fulltext

• Does being LGBT and/or supporting LGBT people have a positive, neutral, or negative impact on individuals and society?
  I would argue it has a negative impact based on suicide rates and mental health issues alone.
  41% of transgender individuals attempt suicide https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/ .
  For gay and bisexual men, 12% have attempted suicide. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447240/
  Contrast this against the general population - 0.5% have attempted suicide. https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/
  I hypothesize that even in a culture free of bullying and discrimination, LGBT people would still be at a significantly higher risk of suicide and mental health issues than the general population, and that this is an unavoidable side-effect.
   
• If being LGBT has a neutral or negative impact, is it ethical to take steps to minimize known environmental and social factors that contribute toward people becoming gay/trans/etc?
  If you have the ability to control something that reduces your child's lifetime risk of suicide from 12% to 0.5%, I believe you have a moral obligation to do it. (The evidence so far suggests that once someone identifies as LGBT, you cannot "convert" them into being straight. I think that's cruel and shouldn't be attempted. I don't advocate for any kind of conversion therapy. I am only talking about influencing a child's sexuality before they reach a developmental point of no return before they've decided one way or the other.)
  Does Maltreatment in Childhood Affect Sexual Orientation in Adulthood? - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3535560/
  Suicide is just one factor to consider, there may be other negative implications as well.
  We don't yet know what all of these social and environmental factors are, but I think we should study it and attempt to reduce them as much as possible. Even a 0.1% ethical reduction in LGBT-identified people by removing these factors during childhood would save tens of thousands of lives.
   
• No matter what we do, some people will always end up identifying as LGBT. What should we do in these cases?
  This is where things like gay marriage, bathroom gender discussions, trans athlete discussions, etc come in.
  I don't think that bullying or being hostile to LGBT people is acceptable. However, we have to consider whether normalizing LGBT lifestyles presents a net harm to society.
  - Children of homosexual couples less likely to identify as straight - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20642872/ 
  https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/adult-children-lesbian-parents-less-likely-identify-straight-study-finds-n989976
  - Does favorable or glamorizing representation of LGBT people in media make kids more likely to identify as LGBT? My intuition says yes, but I don't think a study has been done on this, but it's another environmental factor to consider.
  - Americans who self-identify as LGBT has gone from 3.5% in 2012 to 5.6% in 2020, that's a huge jump. Statistically that's almost a million extra people who will attempt suicide. Is it purely people feeling more able to openly identify without discrimination, or is something actually happening that is making a higher proportion of people LGBT? https://news.gallup.com/poll/329708/lgbt-identification-rises-latest-estimate.aspx
   

Hopefully I've provided enough credible sources to back up my statements that this isn't taken as homophobic.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Yarco

[something_else]

 

37 minutes ago, Yarco said:

I hypothesize that even in a culture free of bullying and discrimination, LGBT people would still be at a significantly higher risk of suicide and mental health issues than the general population, and that this is an unavoidable side-effect.

This is the linchpin of your entire argument, and it’s pure speculation

There have been gay people since humanity began. Stop giving a fuck about it, who cares if it’s normalised. Anything that moves it towards being considered more acceptable will reduce the suicide rate and suffering of that community in the long run.

Anything that does the opposite (more or less what you are suggesting as far as I can tell) will keep it where it is or increase it.

47 minutes ago, Yarco said:

If being LGBT has a neutral or negative impact, is it ethical to take steps to minimize known environmental and social factors that contribute toward people becoming gay/trans/etc

If you reduce the acceptability of it in order to decrease the number of homosexual people overall, you will just increase the suffering of the smaller group of homosexual people because they feel like there’s more of a problem with them

[Loba]

7 hours ago, Someone here said:

Do you think marriages between same-sex couples should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages

Yes, I believe that same sex couples should be allowed to live their lives as they see fit.  As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, what people do with their sexuality should be permitted.  If two same sex people want to get married, they have every right to.  I feel that people don't need to dig into other people's sexualities unless they have an open mind, because if you don't have an open mind towards sexuality, you'll never really "get it"; that people are born a certain way - and even if it were circumstance; God wanted them to be that way.  God is open minded towards unions..

[Someone here]

Like heterosexuals, many lesbian, gay and bisexual people want to form stable, long-lasting relationships and many of them do. In fact, researchers have found that the majority of lesbian, and gay, adults are in committed relationships and many couples have been together 10 or more years.

Being denied the right to marry reinforces the stigma associated with a minority sexual identity.   living in a state where same-sex marriage is outlawed can lead to chronic social stress and mental health problems. Psychologists are particularly concerned that such stigma may undermine the healthy development of adolescents and young adults. 
 

[Someone here]

To deny people the option to marry would be discriminatory and would create a second class of citizens. Same-sex couples should have access to the same benefits enjoyed by heterosexual married couples

[Someone here]

Contrary to the pro gay marriage argument that some different-sex couples cannot have children or don’t want them, even in those cases there is still the potential to produce children. Seemingly infertile heterosexual couples sometimes produce children, and medical advances may allow others to procreate in the future. Heterosexual couples who do not wish to have children are still biologically capable of having them, and may change their minds. 

[John Paul]

@Yarco have you every imagined what it would be like to be gay?

[Someone here]

8 hours ago, John Paul said:

@Yarco have you every imagined what it would be like to be gay?

Good question. 

It's normal to feel attracted to both girls and boys when you're growing up. Find out about coming out, safer sex, and how to deal with bullying if it happens to you.

During puberty, you have lots of emotions and sexual feelings. It's normal for girls to think about girls in a sexual way, and for boys to think about boys in a sexual way.

Some people realise they prefer people of the opposite sex, while others feel they prefer people of the same sex. Some people realise they are gay, lesbian or bisexual at an early age, while others may not know until later in life.

Some young people may also be confused about their sexual identity. They may be asexual, where you're not interested in sex at all, or transgender, where people believe there is a mismatch between their biological sex and identity as a boy or girl. 

You do not choose your sexuality, it chooses you. Nobody knows what makes people gay, lesbian, bisexual or trans. Whatever your sexuality, you deserve to be with someone you love.

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

Personally, that thought haven't crossed my mind once in my life. I have imagined many times, what it'd be like to be a woman, though.

Are you sure you are 100% straight?  Because imagining that you are a woman might be suspicious. 

[Someone here]

@Knowledge Hoarder fair enough ? 

[Reciprocality]

"Do you think marriages between same-sex couples should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages"

Do you think purple is beautiful? Well so far as you think it is you do not therefore think it would be beautiful if your teeth were purple.

And just like that I think gay marriage is in general a betterment for the society it is made legal in, and the freedom it represents for those engaging in that marriages. But I do not therefore think that it is an all good, to take a random suburban culture in Africa or many other places and simply dictate their laws according to the ideal of gay freedom would be more harmful than not. 

 Though it is hard to conceive of any place in which couples themselves would be subject to harm from within at such a rate which would make it better for the laws to prohibit their marriage, as I am sure many conservatives have argued. And even if it were that may not have changed my mind on the legality of it.

When it comes to established religions with cultural significance in the west it is easier for me to constrain them to let gay people marry in their churches than for example a private marriage ceremony company.

 

Just like the dynamics of two galaxies colliding it is never one or the other which completes both, and just like that is the essence of human behavior: ethics. I believe in neither universal nor objective morals, though the general is undeniable albeit often trivial.

[Yarco]

On 2/27/2022 at 7:36 PM, John Paul said:

@Yarco have you every imagined what it would be like to be gay?

Oh wow. Huh. I've never thought of empathizing and putting myself in someone else's shoes before. Not only has this thought exercise cured me of my homophobia, but also my racism and misogyny  as well. Amazing

On 2/28/2022 at 4:22 AM, Someone here said:

Are you sure you are 100% straight?  Because imagining that you are a woman might be suspicious. 

No, please stop. This is actually a huge part of the problem.

This guy expresses a slight curiosity about what it would be like to be a woman, and you immediately start down the path of trying to convince him that he's gay or trans.

It's an epidemic in schools today. A girl is a slight tomboy, a boy picks up a doll one time, a kid doesn't like something about their body, and the teacher is right there to start convincing them that they're LGBT.

Kids are highly impressionable. I think we've swung too far to correct from LGBT being shameful in the past, to it now actually being something that makes you cool and special. Now kids want to identify as LGBT just to have a unique pronoun or orientation to put in their social media bio. It's boring to be cis.

Teachers shouldn't be suggesting kids into thinking that they're gay or trans, any more than it'd be appropriate for them to convince or diagnose a kid as bipolar. If it's causing issues, talk to the parent and refer them to a professional.

I've got a friend who is a primary school teacher (pre-pubescent kids,) and like 10 out of 30 kids in their class classify themselves as LGBT or use pronouns other than what matches up with their biological sex. It hasn't been normal at any point in history for 20 - 30% of people to identify as LGBT, and I think it's going to have huge implications when this generation grows up.

IMO a lot of adults are turning to LGBT due to a lack of meaning and purpose in their life too. Thinking it will be that one issue they never considered/realized that will solve all of their problems. In a lot of ways, the LGBT community seems to operate like a cult to me. This "Are you 100% sure you're straight?" thing is basically the kind of stuff Scientology does.

Look, if my kids turns out to be gay or trans after their own introspection, I'm going to love and accept them. But I'm not going to allow teachers or society at large to gaslight them into it and permanently damage their mental state just because it's currently the trendy or progressive thing to do.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Yarco

[John Paul]

9 hours ago, Yarco said:

Oh wow. Huh. I've never thought of empathizing and putting myself in someone else's shoes before. Not only has this thought exercise cured me of my homophobia, but also my racism and misogyny  as well. Amazing

yep, it's official (he's gay)

[John Paul]

@Yarco just kidding bro but where's the proof and statistics showing teachers suggesting that kids are gay and where is the popular media saying that gay is cool and cis is boring? also maybe more people have been gay and now that's it's normalized and allowed it's just more common(?) possible(?) illogical(?)