How you create other people

[RMQualtrough]

I'm in an altered state. Other people are created unconsciously via perception. What gives another person "thingness" is the same perception that gives dead inert matter its "thingness", in other words it's via sensing that other people are created as "things".

A bat may perceive a person with its sonar vision, but of course the "thingness" of the person rendered via the bat would be completely alien, as the person would be made of sonar sight.

From a human perspective, the people are created in audio, visual, etc. it's perception that gives them human shape and the sound of their voice. A blind person's creation of a human is alien to a sighted person's representation of the same. There is nothing preventing a human from appearing as tiny symbols or sounding like foghorns, the creation is entirely subjective. Many people can agree on what the symbol represents, but the symbol itself will be subjective to the perceptions of the individual.

The fakeness of time allows for backlogging of events. There is no event you are not present for. If you enter a coma, coming out of that coma you will learn of people's prior experiences whilst you were in that coma. The assumption is that your presence was not there while those events happened. In actuality the presence remained. The events took place instantaneously and presently, as do all events.

The entire material world is subjective like a dream, in that it is made up of perceptions and something akin to """imagination""". Like the creation of people, the whole material world is created on the fly via perception consisting of whatever sensory input that may be. Something which is not perceived cannot have "thingness" because any "thingness" is reliant on perception. Water boils if you walk out of the room, but it is not in the kitchen LOOKING or SOUNDING like a boiling kettle. Without perception it is not a thing. All things without perception appear like the world when you are in a coma. It doesn't appear at all and there is no passage of time and space. The passage of time and space is something that is perceived. Without perception all events are immediate and without thingness. All events leading up to now were immediate.

All living beings reside within you. There is no external material world. All points of view take place within you through different masks which is what the ego is. When another human being experiences reality the "I" which creates reality around them, consisting of their sensory creations, is the same one residing back within you. The entire world from any perspective appears from the same "I" through which the world is subjectively crafted around you. All of reality is subjective as all "thingness" is subjective. Objective facts which make up "consensus reality" are sort of like mass hallucination. It's not the ego self which creates reality, the ego self creates a subjective representation of a reality which is outside the scope of its limited self. The imagination/creation of unperceived elements is outside the scope of the small-s self.

Another human being is like a visual avatar representing an element of your own mind. Your OWN self is also a representation of an aspect of your own mind, and is equally as unreal as "others". You don't choose your thoughts, and you don't choose the thoughts of others. It all appears unfolding by itself within the same field.

Lucidity will always be lost. That is good. I'm losing lucidity right now and that is good. When lucid you only exit the game like stirring from a nighttime dream. It is fleeting and falling back asleep is inevitable. This process is forever. Any interpretation of goodness or badness is subjective to the ego like any appearance is. Nothing can in actuality be inherently good or bad, as good or bad is reliant upon the interpretation of the individual, which itself will of course always just be an appearance taking place within existence.

It crafts its actuality via subjective perception. The sheer awareness of this supercedes all reality, as all reality can only ever be an appearance within it, obviously. I.e., no matter what sensory "things" appear, it will always be reliant upon awareness to give it an actuality. Without awareness, the visual representations along with time and space have no actuality, like being comatose there is no "thing" in absence of awareness. Awareness cannot be destroyed because it is by itself nothingness, and there is nowhere for nothingness to go, and no way to destroy nothingness. This is the meaning of emptiness: Awareness by itself is nothing, and the contents of awareness robbed OF that awareness are also nothing. Nothing can "be" without the presence of awareness as it is all skipped over like a coma. Time and space are a form of substrate through which experience takes place. Without experience there is, obviously, no experience of time and space.

Now I have lost lucidity... Oh well...

[michaelcycle00]

@RMQualtrough So, summarizing, you are infinity absolutely speaking but relatively speaking there is your ego bubble but there's also 7.9 billion of them on planet earth right here right now? This means that within the relative world awareness can split itself as many times as it likes, becoming many instead of one, even if just under an illusion. This contradicts other people's experiences on the matter, but theories shouldn't be discarded so easily. 

[RMQualtrough]

3 minutes ago, michaelcycle00 said:

@RMQualtrough So, summarizing, you are infinity absolutely speaking but relatively speaking there is your ego bubble but there's also 7.9 billion of them on planet earth right here right now? This means that within the relative world awareness can split itself as many times as it likes, becoming many instead of one, even if just under an illusion. This contradicts other people's experiences on the matter, but theories shouldn't be discarded so easily. 

Not sure, the state was fleeting and now I lost grasp so I don't know anymore.

All "awakening" is appearance, it is reliant on awareness (AKA itself) to know that it "is". It is recognition of itself and nothing more. It is self awareness. There is of course no self awareness in lieu of awareness. When self aware, awareness is not aware of itself as a "thing", just aware of its own being. By itself as mentioned it is not any thing. It is only difficult to name what it is in its purest form because names and words are appearances within it, which are a type of "thing". All words and names are representative symbols appearing within it. Sort of like how no matter what image you project onto a screen, the image will always just be a modulation of the screen (something appearing within the screen). These appearances are empty like awareness itself as mentioned, and so it can't be captured by crafting a word (word = appearance), only by being it which you presently are... To be exact, any projection onto a screen will be appearance, even if the appearance on that screen says "THIS IS A SCREEN DUMMY!", the screen is only noticed by a shift in perspective which sort of looks "through" the appearance to the bigger picture.

There is nothing spooky or unreachable pertaining to its wordlessness, it is just that words are always appearances, and appearances must be seen through in order to see the backdrop in which they appear, that's all.

You can speak about it easily as it's the only thing you could ever know. There is of course no such thing as knowing without awareness.

There is no event which takes place without our singular presence as without our presence there is no such thing as the passage of time or the appearance of space. You have experienced this many times when you have a dreamless sleep, which acts almost like a wormhole from a first person perspective.

You might think that the "I" through which I am telling you about the world I perceive is in a different location from the one that you probably feel surrounds you/you feel is behind you. It is not. It is that. Just like the you that you see in the mirror does not have awareness inside of the head of the image in the mirror, the person-symbol you see does not have awareness inside of its head. Space and so also location will always be an appearance in it. The I is location-less... To maintain grip on this is not possible for me at all.

[RMQualtrough]

Just close your eyes and feel your presence. There we are. That's where I am. I don't reside out here, I'm there. Now do you feel it? We are all there. There is nothing outside of us and we are not an "us" because we aren't plural. We all live there, projecting this world around us. And yet we are somehow surprised we share the same dream, even though it is just your dream so of course it is the same one.

Existential crisis? Who can help you? Me? But I'm you... Uh oh... Nevermind, the crisis is an appearance made of thoughts. Let's fall back asleep into our own eternal unstoppable creation. Other people are just you lost inside your own dream (typically), their lives are experienced by you just as this one is. See how we create reality by perceiving ourselves (material is the substance of our dream), see how we create many things from one. See how this is our dream. See how I am you. See how the image of you in a mirror is an appearance and nothing more. See that the place we really reside is here.

[RMQualtrough]

See how brains are symbols representing the actuality of a person. Of course there is no person without a brain because a brain is what a person looks like when viewed as an object in the world...  It isn't responsible for actually producing the thing it is known within, it is a symbol representing the process of person-ing. Person-ing will always "look like" a brain as that is the symbol that accompanies it. It will always "act like" a brain because that is the imagined object which represents "person-ing" in the seemingly external dream world.

I.e. the symbol represents "person-ing" in the same way a computer game object represents a string of code. Manipulating the computer game object from inside the game is of course just altering code in reality. The object is not itself creating the code, it can only ever represent that code in interface fashion. The nature of our dream's code is imagination.

[Nivsch]

You creates all your ideas about other people and also the seperation between 'you' and 'others'. You are not creating their raw existance.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Nivsch

[Vynce]

11 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

You creates all your ideas about other people and also the seperation between 'you' and 'others'. You are not creating their raw existance. 

Where exactly is the line between "ideas about other people" and "raw existance" of them? The first is more flimsy and changing, while the latter is solid and "seems" not controllable. However, as you might notice, both qualities of experience are both just experience. So in reality there is absolutely no fundamental difference between "idea mind" and "matter mind" - its both mind. Just different qualities. 

So if you can create ideas, you can create raw existence. The ego mind cannot see this, because it's not conscious enough how it creates raw existence. But what if you could directly see how you create physical "thingness" right in front of you (?). 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Vynce

[BlueOak]

Yes.
But memory. That doesn't fit. You can go internal into memory and the world falls away to it. That would have to be stored. Experience etc. We are not the mind yet it exists as a place we can go into completely at the expense of all other perception.

[Nivsch]

@Vynce Did psychedelics (mainly) made you conclude this or your own meditation/spiritual practices?

Edited February 26, 2022 by Nivsch

[Vynce]

@Nivsch Both. In fact, this realization can come at any given time, if you leave behind all "knowing of what this right on front of you is". It happened to me while walking down a park or doing sports at the gym. 

However psychedelics really crank up the possibility to have this realization. 

By the way, if you don't like be try psychedelics I can really recommend "holotropic breath work" as teached by Leo. This practice revealed to me the same intensity of oneness as heroic doses of LSD would. Not as long though.

But still 40 minutes of breathing gave me more spiritual insight and growth than 2 years of daily meditation. 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Vynce

[INFP RACOON BABY]

i enjoyed your post thanks for sharing

[Javfly33]

All of this to say "I am God and I imagine things, in which some of those things I call "humans" "?

Just kidding man , thanks for sharing ?

[Nivsch]

10 hours ago, Vynce said:

@Nivsch Both. In fact, this realization can come at any given time, if you leave behind all "knowing of what this right on front of you is". It happened to me while walking down a park or doing sports at the gym. 

However psychedelics really crank up the possibility to have this realization. 

By the way, if you don't like be try psychedelics I can really recommend "holotropic breath work" as teached by Leo. This practice revealed to me the same intensity of oneness as heroic doses of LSD would. Not as long though.

But still 40 minutes of breathing gave me more spiritual insight and growth than 2 years of daily meditation. 

 

Do you like the realization?

Did you want to realize this thing before you reached it?

[Vynce]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Do you like the realization?

Did you want to realize this thing before you reached it?

Firstly, the notion of "liking" doesn't match with total oneness realization. Its the biggest orgasmic mindfuck your consciousness can ever have. It's complete freedom and overflowing love. There is no liking or not liking. It's complete acceptance and appreciation of reality. 

You might think, that I'm exaggerating here. But regardless of how I word it, every picture in your mind right now is mice shit compared to the direct experience. Nothing compares. That's why I won't try to compare it. 

Secondly, yes I wanted it. But this wanting did not help me to realize anything. The big leap happened when I totally became conscious of my field of experience. My hands, my room, colors shapes, sounds ect.

So conscious, that wanting and desiring could not exist. Because wanting needs thought, which cannot arise when you are deeply conscious of direct experience. 

Wanting can only happen, if you think. Thinking is not happening when you are conscious. 

Try it out now, be totally conscious of the shape of your arm. 

After that, notice that there was not thinking necessary for this observation. 

Being conscious of what is, is the ultimate advice for awakening. 

 

 

[Nivsch]

@Vynce Yes but the desire affects the fine tuning of the picture after the experience.

There is no way to be fully objective.

This doesnt reduce anything from what you had of course and doesnt contradict your consciousness degree which is relatively high.

But the distance between "we are all one and infinitely together in this" and "I am the only one and imagine all others" in the matter of direct experience tends to be almost zero, and your emotions will make you want to believe and emphsize only one of them, even though the practical difference between the two is very large.

I personally think that everybody have their own experience but in the absolute we all merge to one giant organism (the 'together' version). Even science knows this theoretically but cant really understand and see its significance.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Nivsch

[Vynce]

@Nivsch The solipsism discussion has been thoroughly milked in this forum many times. I don't want to go into this mud bath with you.

Everything I say here will sound contradictory to your apparent sense of reality. 

If you want real answers, find ways to increase your consciousness. Be careful though. Test yourself how bad you want to know the truth. And vice versa, how bad you like your sense of reality now.  If other stuff is currently more important to you, do that first. 

Here what worked for me:

Psychedelics, breath work, meditation, contemplation.

Here what has not worked for me:

Forum threads, mental masturbation, wise quotes and spiritual acting. 

[Nivsch]

@Vynce That doesnt change anything I wrote above.

Again everyone will reach a little different conclusion influenced (also) by his desires ?

Have a good luck.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Nivsch

[Vynce]

@Nivsch Desire is something the ego does. You really need a reference experience, what No-mind (no ego) is. 

Realizing absolute truth is only possible in levels of consciousness, which make thought constructed ego patterns completely unable to persist. 

In fact, you will find out that this moment right here is your highest desire. 

But again, believing that thought will answer metaphysical questions, will result in logical loops and paradox. 

More consciousness is all we need. 

[Loba]

Cool, I do automatic writing sometimes too.  I'll have to read this a few times to understand it.  It's amazing what can be written in lucid states.