The source of thoughts is aware

[VeganAwake]

7 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

@snowyowl if it was understood what @VeganAwake was saying, this question wouldn't make sense. 

Consider that for most organisms, there is the sense of a physical body, and then ALSO an internal 'soul' or 'self' who 'is aware of the body' or who 'controls the body' etc.. 

What can happen is, some organisms recognize that there actually is no 'separate self' in addition to 'the body' any more than 'the fingers' are 'separate from the hand'.   

What this means for the organism, is that there is no 'Self' who suffers 'in addition to' what the body is feeling.  There is 'no one' to suffer over the suffering. 

So, when it's asked, 'are you happier now', recognize that the 'you' who is being asked doesn't exist.  The organism continues to experience happiness and sadness and whatever else it experiences, without the illusion of some 'separate self' who also suffers over the sadness, or who is 'happy' about the happiness. 

Very well said...

Yes it's just raw emotions or feeling. The illusion of self which attempts to push away so-called negative emotions for so-called positive one's is seen to be completely unreal. 

Internal conflict is over because there is no longer anyone left that prefers a certain emotion over another.

There is no one left to say "yay I am enlightened and this is incredible".

There does seem to be an incredible sense of freedom from the needy self which attempts to control its apparent reality.

❤ 

 

 

 

[WokeBloke]

1 hour ago, VeganAwake said:

Very well said...

Yes it's just raw emotions or feeling. The illusion of self which attempts to push away so-called negative emotions for so-called positive one's is seen to be completely unreal. 

Internal conflict is over because there is no longer anyone left that prefers a certain emotion over another.

There is no one left to say "yay I am enlightened and this is incredible".

There does seem to be an incredible sense of freedom from the needy self which attempts to control its apparent reality.

❤ 

 

 

 

@Mason Riggle There is still the writer of that post which is aware of raw feelings/emotions

[snowyowl]

@VeganAwake  @Mason Riggle  ok I get that there never was a separate self to begin with, just an idea of separateness, yet there was still suffering. I'm not getting the impression from you that suffering stops altogether with awakening, but maybe there's a reduction as the raw feelings aren't layered over with the extra sense of a subject having the experience. 

The odd thing is, that the self which you insist is illusory, can yet still produce real feelings of the extra suffering layer. An illusion creating reality? 

[Mason Riggle]

1 hour ago, WokeBloke said:

@Mason Riggle There is still the writer of that post which is aware of raw feelings/emotions

Nope.  

[WokeBloke]

8 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Nope.  

The only way to know about feelings is by experiencing them.

[WelcometoReality]

3 hours ago, Benton said:

It’s all you. Who else could be responsible?

Most people aren't aware of that. They believe that they are a separate self in a fearful world and their actions are a reflection of that. 

[Johnny Galt]

@WokeBloke simple and to the point, this bloke is getting the direct, the only place to experience, the direct, always, now now and now

[VeganAwake]

7 hours ago, snowyowl said:

@VeganAwake  @Mason Riggle  ok I get that there never was a separate self to begin with, just an idea of separateness, yet there was still suffering. I'm not getting the impression from you that suffering stops altogether with awakening, but maybe there's a reduction as the raw feelings aren't layered over with the extra sense of a subject having the experience. 

The odd thing is, that the self which you insist is illusory, can yet still produce real feelings of the extra suffering layer. An illusion creating reality? 

I'm just not sure how you define suffering. There can definitely still be inconveniences or apparent bad situations like your brother getting hit by a car or getting mugged.

But yes like you said there is no longer anyone left to create a dramatic personalized story to dwell upon or resist.

Yep, emotions and feelings still arise....it's not like an emotional detachment/denial or something like that.

However the emotions do feel impersonal or completely raw and unfiltered. Guilt free.

Nothing physically changes in the appearance of reality.

But it's recognized nobody is experiencing it.

Apparent existence becomes very dream-like or unimportant.

The illusion of self doesn't create reality....it seems to distort it, which is why it's referred to as the Dream Story.

❤ 

 

[Breakingthewall]

the source of thought is the desire for survival, and its effect is the separation between you and what is not you. thinking is a separating activity.

if you stop thinking, the separation disappears, but you cannot do it because you need that separation to feel safe. if you stop thinking the self disappears, and that produces panic. To achieve this, a profound reeducation is necessary.

it must be understood that the self is a fictitious entity created by thought. the problem is that the one who has to understand it and let go of the self is the self itself

[snowyowl]

11 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

I'm just not sure how you define suffering. There can definitely still be inconveniences or apparent bad situations like your brother getting hit by a car or getting mugged.

I know what you mean, it's a bit tricky to define the difference. But suffering is like when the experiences are happening to someone, who doesn't want them, labels them as unpleasant, and seeks/desires to stop them in the future. So it's related to the seeker in spirituality too. 

To use the desert mirage analogy, if I'm in the desert and thirsty, the thirst is a real feeling. "I" don't like being thirsty so I start seeking water, hoping to find some.  Real too is the sight of the mirage, but I create a story around it that it is water and my hopes are raised, only to be dashed when I discover it isn't water after all. Suffering is because my story and hope is destroyed so I'm left with what I don't like. However the feeling of thirst remains as it was before. 

11 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

The illusion of self doesn't create reality....it seems to distort it, which is why it's referred to as the Dream Story.

This is what I'm contemplating. We seem to agree that the separate self doesn't exist though the illusion of the separate self does exist (for some of us). What is 'the illusion of self' made of? There's a story going on within thought, but it's very persistent and is it based on anything other than thoughts begetting thoughts?

As I'm contemplating it now, it seems that my sense-perception (sight, sound etc) has this quality of coming in from outside the body, called objects. Other perceptions (thoughts, feelings etc) seem to be generated inside the body, called the subject. Is that distinction perhaps a layer of thought on top of the pure perception? The belief that 'inside the body' is separate from 'outside the body' is arbitrary but in a way necessary to provide for survival of what's assumed to be separate. 

[VeganAwake]

There isn't a real you that needs to contemplate anything.

The relentless feeling that something needs to be found or attained stems from an illusory experience of separation....

When it's clearly recognized there isn't a you in the body...BAM Enlightenment, Freedom!

It's so already that it seems hidden.

 

❤ 

 

[Breakingthewall]

11 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

When it's clearly recognized there isn't a you in the body...BAM Enlightenment,

Agree, the self is illusion, a mental construction, but enlightenment is not only knowing what is not real, it is about realizing what is... because you are, right? So, what are you?

[Zeroguy]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Agree, the self is illusion, a mental construction, but enlightenment is not only knowing what is not real, it is about realizing what is... because you are, right? So, what are you?

I will answer ,may I?Random God realized serb ,thanks for asking.

[Breakingthewall]

22 minutes ago, Zeroguy said:

I will answer ,may I?Random God realized serb ,thanks for asking.

12 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

 

it's a way of saying it

[VeganAwake]

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Agree, the self is illusion, a mental construction, but enlightenment is not only knowing what is not real, it is about realizing what is... because you are, right? So, what are you?

I get what you're saying.....we're just not talking about the same thing. Enlightenment is the end of knowing because it's the end of that which believes it can know.

When its clearly recognized the self is unreal, there's no one left to claim identification as this or that. No one left to get convinced that they are actually something else.

Seeking & identification are both the game of self/ego.

❤ 

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Enlightenment is the end of knowing because it's the end of that which believes it can know.

19 hours ago, Zeroguy said:

I 

On 4/3/2022 at 4:59 AM, VeganAwake said:

 

Agree, you realize that the self is an entity created by thought as soon as thought ceases, but when this happens, you become aware of something else, since the self continues to exist to be aware, albeit in the background. the immeasurable, the unthinkable, manifests itself, and you realize that this is you (always from the illusory self), and I suppose that you will be able to realize more things. enlightenment happens to the self, because if there were no self, there would simply be enlightenment, no one to be enlightened to. 

So, to say that the self does not exist is not exact, since somehow it does exist. we are talking here right? better understand what it is: memory, thought, time.

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[VeganAwake]

13 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

we are talking here right?

The bodies can talk to each other back and forth no problem.

The illusion is the experience that there is a real YOU over there in that body and a real ME over here in this body.(Duality)  

The bodies are completely empty, there isn't a real living individual inside of them or anywhere for that matter. (Nonduality)

❤ 

 

[snowyowl]

1 hour ago, VeganAwake said:

The bodies can talk to each other back and forth no problem.

The illusion is the experience that there is a real YOU over there in that body and a real ME over here in this body.(Duality)  

The bodies are completely empty, there isn't a real living individual inside of them or anywhere for that matter. (Nonduality)

❤ 

Experience? If it's really experienced then how do you judge that moment as illusory rather than anything else? 

I've already mentioned about an apparent directionality of awareness. I'm beginning to think that the idea of myself / yourself is based on the attention of focussed awareness pointing in one direction or another. It's an energy (for want of a better word) which takes on forms, but doesn't become split up and separated into me and you. In fact, I can't observe it pointing to myself and another person simultaneously, rather it (the same singular energy) seems to oscillate at high speed between pointing inwards (me) and outwards (someone or something else). But this is still a contemplative work in progress - by the unreal me

[VeganAwake]

2 hours ago, snowyowl said:

 

2 hours ago, snowyowl said:

Experience? If it's really experienced then how do you judge that moment as illusory rather than anything else?

Well it's not a judgment, it's a clear recognition.

Experience in the sense that it feels completely real. 

Illusory in the sense that there isn't a real individual actually experiencing apparent reality.

I've already mentioned about an apparent directionality of awareness. I'm beginning to think that the idea of myself / yourself is based on the attention of focussed awareness pointing in one direction or another. It's an energy (for want of a better word) which takes on forms, but doesn't become split up and separated into me and you. In fact, I can't observe it pointing to myself and another person simultaneously, rather it (the same singular energy) seems to oscillate at high speed between pointing inwards (me) and outwards (someone or something else). But this is still a contemplative work in progress - by the unreal me

Interesting contemplation! ❤ 

"It seems that in the boundless energy that is oneness there can also arise a contracted energy which brings about apparent self-awareness. A powerful and convincing sense of self-identity seems to arise together with a belief in personal free will and choice in what is experienced as a real life story. All of these personal experiences can only apparently arise in what seems to be a very real but dualistic reality in which everything appears to be separate. This sense of separation can bring with it a sense of loss and a need to seek guidance, an understanding or a path or process that can promise fulfilment. There are attempts to seek unity which are totally futile because the separate seeker is apparently the very dualism from which it is trying to escape".

- Tony Parsons