Maybe a short-term hedonistic outlook is the optimized one

[Yarco]

The world's been actively getting worse and worse for the past 2 years and doesn't show any signs of getting better any time soon.

2 years isn't a very long time, so maybe this is a short-sighted approach that will hurt you in the long run, so proceed with caution. Maybe war with Russia will be averted and 2023 will be the best year of the decade. Maybe everything will work itself out and we'll have a golden age and everything will be awesome for the next decade. But if I was betting, I'd bet against it. 

So many of us who are into self-help are all about optimizing our lives. Often this comes at the cost of suffering in the short term. Eating healthy food that doesn't taste as good. Doing exercise that is painful and uncomfortable. Working on a business that won't pay you anything for the next 2 years. Constantly trading off short-term gratification for long-term gains.

What if going forward, you no longer have the ability to enjoy any of the luxuries that life will have to offer?

What if the world becomes so unstable that you won't have a chance to travel abroad for the next decade or two?

What if money becomes such an issue that you can't buy video games or entertainment stuff any more? Or the economy is so screwed up that your business idea is no longer possible.

What if the government cracks down on climate change to the point that buying steak or meat in general becomes either illegal or cost-prohibitive?

What if you end up dying before age 60, before the effects of poor health really have an impact on you? What if you die decades before your retirement savings were due to run out?

Of course the opposite is true. If you pursue short-term gratification and life goes on as normal or things improve, you're going to need triple bypass surgery or just die early of diabetes, or you'll live out your final decades in squalor.

But maybe it's worth taking that risk to get as much enjoyment out of the next few years that you can, while it's still an option.

There's no bonus points for finishing your life with a nice body or tons of money in your bank account. So why go above and beyond? All of your advanced spiritual knowledge doesn't help you connect with people. If anything it just makes it harder to spend time with people and enjoy normal stuff.

I can't control what's happening in the world right now. I can't control what my own government does. I can't control how much stuff will cost next year. What I can control is ordering a large pizza and cracking open a beer, and washing it down with some Doritos and Mountain Dew as I play video games, or binge watch every anime in existance, or watching tiktok meme compilation videos on autoplay all night, or whatever else you enjoy.

Get as much pleasure as you can now, because there's no guarantee it'll be available in the future. The Great Depression lasted nearly 10 years. WWII lasted 6. And at the moment it seems like we could be on the precipice of either. Or both. Are you prepared to be miserable until 2030? How about one last mukbang first. Let's mukbang while the world burns. Grab 10 of whatever your favorite fast food item is and let's go.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Yarco

[RendHeaven]

27 minutes ago, Yarco said:

Get as much pleasure as you can now, because there's no guarantee it'll be available in the future. The Great Depression lasted nearly 10 years. WWII lasted 6. And at the moment it seems like we could be on the precipice of either. Or both. Are you prepared to be miserable until 2030? How about one last mukbang first. Let's mukbang while the world burns. Grab 10 of whatever your favorite fast food item is and let's go.

Maybe try this yourself (actually, not theoretically) before announcing it as a possible solution to life lol 

Would love to see a 1 week, 1 month, 1 year report of your mental & physical health after engaging in a mountain of bad habits.

If this path is truly "optimized," the results will speak for themselves...

[Yarco]

Do you think this is a hypothetical or a joke to me? It's not. I feel great, you should try it.

I didn't say that it's a solution to life. Just that you can optimize life for pleasure.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Yarco

[Seth]

https://youtu.be/ym0mSXSNZsU

Just don't fool yourself. 

[Carl-Richard]

23 hours ago, Yarco said:

So many of us who are into self-help are all about optimizing our lives. Often this comes at the cost of suffering in the short term. Eating healthy food that doesn't taste as good. Doing exercise that is painful and uncomfortable. Working on a business that won't pay you anything for the next 2 years. Constantly trading off short-term gratification for long-term gains.

On the contrary, eating healthy food, doing heavy exercise and even doing your work on time can be experienced as maximally desirable and beneficial in the immediate short-term. It just depends on your preferences, which can be changed drastically.

I'll use myself as an example: I used to be a full-time stoner back in my late teens; potato chips, pizza, porn and energy drinks 24/7. Then when I discovered meditation and quickly got my first non-dual glimpse, I noticed a couple of days into this new existence that the level of enjoyment I got from eating a pizza had become rather empty. It was such a drastic effect that I'll never forget it. It literally felt empty (they don't call it discovering emptiness for nothing ).

Then after years of integrating this understanding into my life, my approach to food, physical exercise and even work itself has completely inverted. It's based on a shift from preferring impulsive and explosive bursts of indulgence (hedonism) to preferring a stable, subtle and refined state of consciousness. It's not really reducible to the dichotomy of long vs. short term: the pleasurable effects of eating healthy food is felt both immediately in the moment, as well as the hours, days and weeks afterwards. It's both intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, short and long-term benefits.

Same with exercise and following work schedule. Exercise for me has become more and more like a perpetual flow state. There is really no struggle or suffering associated with it. Body and mind are completely aligned, everything is working at optimal performance, effort is pleasure. Similarly, doing work on time fulfills an energetic need in the body. Ignoring work poisons the mind with fear, worry and anxiety, which in turn poisons the body. The distractions, the explosive indulgence, is no longer seen to be the primary desire. That isn't to say they're not experienced in some form or another, but no longer in transaction for baseline health, but rather as a way to complete it.

[RendHeaven]

22 minutes ago, Yarco said:

I feel great, you should try it.

Already did (recently), and VERY QUICKLY became miserable short-term. Absolutely devastated.

I'm simply too aware for hedonism at this point.

@Carl-Richard +1 to everything: All of my healthy habits now are grounded in their immediate benefits (emotions, mood) NOW! NOW NOW NOW!

[Yarco]

1 hour ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

Maximizing hedonism is just not an option. That'd be me turning 180° against my values - and what makes life trully worth living - which is the intrinsic, internal, subtle pleasures, rather than external, strong, addictive, flashy ones. Even if It was guaranteed that I'd die tomorow, I'd still rather engage in something meaningfull - like write next couple of pages of some story - rather than spending the present moment unconsciously gorging myself with food and drinks. In that particuliar scenario, I'd probably just meditate the whole time, appreciating every single moment I'm alive, before inevitable death.

Although, I do have one exception from the rule - as every good rule should have one. It's possible I'd pay a hooker to blow me? But other than that, no hedonism.

You can still do stuff that is meaningful to you. If you want to write a story, write a story. But stop as soon as it becomes  a tedious chore.

If you want to write, or draw, or make music in a self-indulgent way, I'd still consider that hedonistic. It's not only about food and sex and drugs. Meaningful things can still be the byproduct of your hedonism

Do you think your message above contradicts at all with this other message you wrote today:

Quote

However, here's the important thing to consider - health is NOT the most important value you should be striving towards. Life purphose will always be ABOVE health, since it's a job/occupation gives your life meaning, purphose and drive. And quality is always more important than quantity, in almost everything.

What's the point of living 120 years of insignificant, meaningless existence, when you can live 60/70/80 years of much more meaningfull and fun life? A lot of people overestimate health, in my opinion.

What if you could gorge yourself while simultaneously living a short-but-extremely-meaningful life 

[Loba]

I've tried it, I do both.  I try to find as much pleasure as I can in life, but still do things that are beneficial.  You can be a hedonist and take care of yourself at the same time, in fact, I spend most of the day just caring for myself and doing my best to love who I am and where I am in life, and I don't skimp on good food, or smoking bowls or having a drink.  I like to spend my time writing things and enjoying new music. 

Every day, I just do things that make me happy and feel good and you know, I feel like it gets me to God and Love just as easily as hardcore spiritual practices.  All you have to do is Love and be honest with yourself.
I feel blessed to have this time.

Gratitude, that's it.  Hedonism is best done with a boatload of gratitude.  

[Loba]

@Knowledge Hoarder The muse is the soul reaching out, trust me dude, follow those moments of inspiration.
Hedonism just increases inspiration.  It does go somewhere, you just have to add "some" discipline. 

People that can live a life like this are blessed.  They need to be grateful.  Hedonism plus gratitude is a great life.

I view working out when I want, baths when I want, anything 'when I want' hedonism, but it allows me creative thought; I draw well.  After a few months of creative writing, I can draw again, and then write again, ect.  People naturally gravitate towards healthy things.  I don't think, all on their own, if free to do whatever, that it would be an unhealthy life.

Hedonism to me = freedom of choice in the moment = greater chance of awakening.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Loba

[John Paul]

@Yarco if your at your end, take a bunch of mushroom in your house alone. and take a shit. then see how you feel

[Godhead]

This shit gets boring veeerryy fast. If you want to enjoy hedonistic pleasures, treat yourself from time to time, don't go pig mode lol.

Do you think the happiest people are those who consume the most amount of junk? 

[RendHeaven]

On 2/25/2022 at 8:38 PM, Yarco said:

The shrimp rice crackers in the upper right slap though

[soos_mite_ah]

On 2/25/2022 at 6:49 PM, Yarco said:

What if going forward, you no longer have the ability to enjoy any of the luxuries that life will have to offer?

What if the world becomes so unstable that you won't have a chance to travel abroad for the next decade or two?

What if money becomes such an issue that you can't buy video games or entertainment stuff any more? Or the economy is so screwed up that your business idea is no longer possible.

What if the government cracks down on climate change to the point that buying steak or meat in general becomes either illegal or cost-prohibitive?

What if you end up dying before age 60, before the effects of poor health really have an impact on you? What if you die decades before your retirement savings were due to run out?

Of course the opposite is true. If you pursue short-term gratification and life goes on as normal or things improve, you're going to need triple bypass surgery or just die early of diabetes, or you'll live out your final decades in squalor.

But maybe it's worth taking that risk to get as much enjoyment out of the next few years that you can, while it's still an option.

Or this is even more of a reason to life a purposeful life and not spend it on petty things. Of course, treating yourself and pleasure isn't inherently petty and you shouldn't restrict for the sake of restricting or because you're holier than thou. But full on hedonism get old and empty really quickly. Spend time with people you care about and cut out anyone who is toxic or drains you. Eat in a way that lets you connect with other people, enjoy a social life, and fuel your body in a way that makes you feel energized and alive. Start that big project because that's what you always wanted to do. Take a few risk, face your fears and limitting beliefs etc. 

Basically, before my comment turns into a collection of cliche sayings, there is nothing wrong with hedonsim so long you are being responsible and you're not harming yourself or the people around you. It's perfectly fine in moderation but that involves you being conscious about your limits. 

[Striving for more]

My life better if I eat clean cos brain is sharp as possible. But 1/2 days a week of moderate amounts of tasty bad  food works well for me.

Occasionaly a full on day or multi day bender of gorging myself with pizza milkshakes & ice cream + video games also has it's place, But I try to save this for uncommon moments of well earnt celebration, after completing a hard challenge or something, it certainly has it's place for me. 

Healthy hednoistic pleasures like driving a lambo, motorbike, skiing, playing sports, orgies or listening to music in a hottub , renting out parties in some beautiful location , going to comedy shows, travel, should be enjoyed to fullest , I aim do these abunduntly until I die, not in moderation.

Junk food in moderation because theres hangover, no hangover from truly having fun for me.

However We all independtly decide our best life, no one else. 

P.s maybe u have freak genetics & u can get away with it, gotta respect the independance of thought & inquisitiveness, enjoy & do whatever u want.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Striving for more

[Kksd74628]

@Yarco

I have said many times in this forum that you should only do things that you want to do. If you want to have healthy life you should also like these things that lead to it. So my opinion is that you should find things that you want to do and do them and whenever you want to do something else then do that. Goals are something that come as bonus for your action. So don't try to aim anywhere, but just do things that you think will be helpful for you.

If you say that eating junk food is right thing for you NOW then I would say that okay go and after that you have realized that doing all junk things make you feel horrible then do something that is your new idea for life. Only way to really have life you want is to try all things in some degree. There is a reason why you feel sleepy and powerless immendiately after consuming lot of sugar and fat.

I agree that you shouldn't wait to be happy until your last years of your life and this is not what this is about, but just to optimize your life happiness over your whole life. One thing that helps you to be extremely happy is to start meditating regularly and enjoying present moment as it is. Point of life is to be happy and happiness is accepting present moment as it is. Ta - da : )

-joNi-