Choiceless and Chooser simultaneously

[WokeBloke]

The paradox of immortality.

You can't escape yourself. It's not your choice to exist. You must exist.

What you do with yourself is your choice.

[Mason Riggle]

8 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

The paradox of immortality.

You can't escape yourself. It's not your choice to exist. You must exist.

What you do with yourself is your choice.

Nope.  Choosing occurs all on it's own the same way 'growing hair' occurs all on it's own.  Organisms grow hair, but they don't choose how their hair grows. Organisms make choices, but they don't choose what choices they make.  It's a trick of language that gives rise to the illusion of 'doership'. 

When we say, "I am growing my hair." we understand that we mean, 'my organism grows hair all by itself' and we are never tempted to imagine some separate 'grower of hair' inside us somewhere.. but when it comes to thinking and choosing, we somehow make the mistake of thinking there's some 'me' somewhere inside of an organism who is 'controlling what choices it makes' or 'thinking it's thoughts'.  

But there is no 'doer' of what's being done.  No thinker of what's being thought.  No chooser of what's being chosen.  

There's no clouder who clouds the sky.. there's no grower who grows the trees.. 

Clouds occur.. trees occur.. thinking occurs.. choosing occurs.. and all of this happens.. is happening, all by itself, with no one who 'does' any of it. 

You are something that is happening.. not something that 'does things'. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Mason Riggle

[WokeBloke]

@Mason Riggle 

"Organisms make choices, but they don't choose what choices they make."

 

That sentence makes no sense. To make a choice is to choose your choice. You can't make a choice without choosing.

You are presented with 3 options.

You choose option 1. You choose to choose option 1.

 

Actions only happen because you do them.

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by WokeBloke

[Mason Riggle]

@WokeBloke computers that play chess make choices.  Would it make sense to say, 'what the computer does with itself is it's choice.'? 

 

[WokeBloke]

@Mason Riggle Humans and computers aren't comparable. 

With humans there is the dimension of subjectivity or consciousness which does the choosing.

With computers there is no subjectivity so the notion that the computer is deciding what to do on it's own accord is erroneous because it isn't conscious. It's just a running the program it was given.

 

[Mason Riggle]

@WokeBloke I disagree. 

How does 'consciousness' or 'subjectivity' decide what to do? 

Is consciousness deciding how to grow your hair? Is consciousness choosing what thoughts you think? How??

[Wilhelm44]

5 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@WokeBloke I disagree. 

How does 'consciousness' or 'subjectivity' decide what to do? 

Is consciousness deciding how to grow your hair? Is consciousness choosing what thoughts you think? How??

Are you saying things are predestined in a way ? Or random ?

[Mason Riggle]

@Wilhelm44 predestined is a redundant word. Destined is already past tense. I have no doubt I will meet my destiny no matter what I choose, because my choices will always lead me to my destiny.. I just don't get to know what my destiny is til I get there.

I don't know what 'random' means.. uncaused? 

 

[Wilhelm44]

1 hour ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Wilhelm44 predestined is a redundant word. Destined is already past tense. I have no doubt I will meet my destiny no matter what I choose, because my choices will always lead me to my destiny.. I just don't get to know what my destiny is til I get there.

I don't know what 'random' means.. uncaused? 

 

I guess what I'm saying is, does God already know in advance exactly how everything will happen or play out so to speak ?

Does God have a plan ?

Edited February 25, 2022 by Wilhelm44

[Mason Riggle]

@Wilhelm44 If God has a plan, it's suspiciously similar to that of someone with no plan.

In all seriousness though, I think it's a mistake to think of God as a 'doer' or some separate entity who 'creates' reality, or 'knows' what will happen.  

I tend to think reality is unfolding how it will, and there's nobody doing that. 

[Wilhelm44]

7 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Wilhelm44 If God has a plan, it's suspiciously similar to that of someone with no plan.

In all seriousness though, I think it's a mistake to think of God as a 'doer' or some separate entity who 'creates' reality, or 'knows' what will happen.  

I tend to think reality is unfolding how it will, and there's nobody doing that. 

ie no separation between God and infinite creation 

[Mason Riggle]

@Wilhelm44 that's how I see it.  Saying 'God Created' implies a subject/object duality.. 

There is God, there is you, there is all of creation, and all 3 are the same thing. 

[Wilhelm44]

2 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Wilhelm44 that's how I see it.  Saying 'God Created' implies a subject/object duality.. 

There is God, there is you, there is all of creation, and all 3 are the same thing. 

Beautiful, thank you.

[The0Self]

3 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

@Mason Riggle 

"Organisms make choices, but they don't choose what choices they make."

 

That sentence makes no sense. To make a choice is to choose your choice. You can't make a choice without choosing.

You are presented with 3 options.

You choose option 1. You choose to choose option 1.

 

Actions only happen because you do them.

 

This misunderstanding is very directly and simply put to rest by the following metaphor if the pointing is seen:

Q: Did Romeo and Juliet choose (or cause) their suicide?

A: Obviously not, because it's just a play. Only in the story did something in the story cause their suicide.

In the same way, choices in the real world are simply an appearance of the infinite -- like a tree growing, but faster, and (like everything else) diverse in its own way. Only in the story can something in the story cause anything to happen.

Edited February 25, 2022 by The0Self

[WokeBloke]

1 hour ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Wilhelm44 that's how I see it.  Saying 'God Created' implies a subject/object duality.. 

There is God, there is you, there is all of creation, and all 3 are the same thing. 

@Mason Riggle God is not a creation. Thus creation is not God.

[Mason Riggle]

@WokeBloke I didn't say God is a creation. I said God is Creation. 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Mason Riggle

[WokeBloke]

@Mason Riggle All creations are created and God is uncreated thus God isn't creation.

[Loba]

18 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

The paradox of immortality.

You can't escape yourself. It's not your choice to exist. You must exist.

What you do with yourself is your choice.

My awakening experiences told me that we have a pseudo-choice, but this choice is actually an illusion created by the ego - there is no real choice - I was chosen to be a shaman and I was told it was a choice made for me before my birth - and all events in my life were circumstances put in place to lead to that awakening in that moment. 

The moment is Now; and when I am in Now - then I can be a shaman because I can translate more efficiently, but it is a hobby that takes practice..

I get what you are saying and have come to similar conclusions, and had awakenings from such conclusions into the illusory lie that is death.

[Mason Riggle]

@WokeBloke I suppose we have differing understandings of what God is.  

For me, God has no otherness, just like me, just like Reality. God is all there is. I am all that there is (What I am IS Everything that I'm aware of.). Reality (God) is all that there is, and I'm that. My leg. My thoughts. My table. My experience. My neighbor. All me. All God. (Some might say, it's all Gods dream, but to me that again implies a separation, God and God's dream.)

I could happily replace the word 'is' with 'seems to be'. 

My Steelman of your idea of God, is a God that is separate from Reality. Creator of Reality. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Mason Riggle

[WokeBloke]

@Mason Riggle 

So obviously our reality is not separate from itself. However I suggest that our reality consists of two aspects. The uncreated and the created.

Within the uncreated (or within yourself) the creation is happening. I don't understand why you identify as your creations. If you create something such as a post then you must not be it because prior to you creating it, it did not exist but you did exist. You brought it into existence by yourself. But then to identify as your creation doesn't make sense to me.

Edited February 25, 2022 by WokeBloke