You Can Not Do Anything To Wake Up

[zenny]

@Ayla I see:).Using mind as a tool sounds great!:). I understand now:).  

[Dhana Choko]

Interesting points in this thread. I will reply deeply later.

@Leo GuraWhat I have been thinking about lately, is that nothing that this person "Dhana Choko" does can contribute to awakening or enlightenment. The person "Dhana Choko" might be interested in enlightenment or spirituality or self-actualization, but it is still the persona and the patterns in the persona doing the "self-developmental journey". Many teachers like Tony Parsons and Lisa Cairns etc. talk about how the I cannot do anything to wake up because waking up is beyond "I". So the "I" might like poker or it might like spiritualism or it might like to watch Leo's videos and only the mind can make an assumption that "I meditated x amount of hours and this caused my insights and glimpses into the eternity", but it is just the minds idea and concept. Also it is true that many spiritual teachers meditated, but is that just a reflection of their understandings or the cause of it? Is it just that because they were on Earth and they had to do something, they just meditated cause that was something they were interested in personally.  Lisa Cairns talks about how the mind makes assumptions about what causes what. Is it possible that all spiritual truth seeking is still just a journey within the mind, even the most craziest theories that seem to be outside the box and seem to be so "out the mind" are actually just some crazy ways of the mind trying to preserve itself? Just ways to think that it is going somewhere, just ways to prove to itself that it is doing something meaningful and to prove it exists?

To me this is very interesting and kind of ego threatening at the same time because it makes all of the spiritual search etc. completely futile. So I need to ponder deeply the idea that it might be that everything that I am thinking of doing for enlightenment or waking up, is contributing nothing to my possible understanding of the "I" and the True Self. It might be something that this dream character just spends time with and in its big ego thinks that it is achieving something.  I think this is something that can lead to deep discoveries within one self, since letting go of the idea that "I" can control enlightenment or waking up, is a very deep belief and just sitting with the idea that "I have no control over my enlightenment" scares the shit out of most spiritual truth seekers.

[Leo Gura]

@Dhana Choko Yes in that "you" can't directly cause the enlightenment to occur, but I really don't see this a being much different than say getting hired for a great job. You can't directly force someone to hire you. But you can certainly take the actions necessary to get hired, if not today, then next week.

The practical danger with saying that there's nothing you can do, is that it makes people stop trying, expecting enlightenment to happen through some kind of blind luck. This is NOT how serious people get enlightened. Serious people undertake a serious seeking and eventually the seeking gets dropped and enlightenment dawns spontaneously. But that's not to say that serious seeking wasn't necessary. It's part of the total process.

In general what happens is that once the person becomes enlightened he likes to say the whole journey was unnecessary, but I think that's a bit unrealistic and unhelpful to those who aren't enlightened yet. That kind of advice is good for people who have been seeking for 10 years and can't stop seeking. Then you tell them to drop the seeking because it's become an obstacle.

[zenny]

@Dhana Choko the following book will be of some help:) .its on words of UG. The book is full of UG's notes and it addresses what you felt .

 

 

The Book of Passages.pdf

[Dhana Choko]

Thank you Zenny! I will look into it!  

I think this is very fascinating topic. 

In a way I think that the consciousness just flows through the energies within each person and makes them be interested in spirituality or poker or whatever, but they do not have a choice in it. Either they will just do it or not because that is the energy that flows through them and it has nothing to do with what I say (and if I say something that affects them, then that is the flow of the energy as well and no "I" has control over it). Also when they wake up, they have no control in it since there is no "I" to control any of it.  Also if there is no "I" to wake up then why worry so much if someone spends their life meditating 1000s of hours or not. This is so confusing and funny at the same time and I am pretty sure that I am explaining it in a crappy way but oh well, here I go anyway.  

I think this is an excellent interview with Tony Parsons. This has inspired me.
 

 

 

[zenny]

@Dhana Choko Dhana:), I will check that video soon:).................we both know that sounds or thoughts affect the body. So, the thought" I don't have control" or the thought" I have control", will affect our actions. There are certain words or actions , which might silence the mind. From cesar teruel , i heard that it takes time for thought mechanism to dissolve. and yes, we have no control over it, but, whenever we crave or avert, there is no equanimity and one adds powerful emotional experiences to their very thought structure ,which, they are trying to slow down by meditation and various stuff.  Ug explains enlightenment as something that is biological . When there is no momentum added to thought structure, it seems  to change its form and this leads to a change in body. Memory seems to be stored in every cell of the body and so, this memory should be dissolved!. If a  A mutation bought the capacity for humans to be self conscious, then, another mutation will change it!. But, whatever i am telling you right now, is adding to the momentum of thought structure, which is the very thing that is stopping your body from being in a natural state. I said body!. it is definitely paradoxical and confusing., check out the" book of passages pdf" that i sent you above, because, UG addresses everything in a logical way to a greater extent. In buddhism or somewhere, they negate statements. they negate A with b, and then, C is used to negate both a , b, and then d is used to negate a,b,c etc. Do u now see why these guys have been negating everything and trying to put one in a state of silence!, because, I think that one is rarely willing to be silent with no need for answers or clarity!. so, this process will seem paradoxical, because, that's how these guys deal with nature of mind. By negating we make one silent. But still, the question," if this whole Enlightenment thing is serious" still remains. I find vipassana useful, it was taught by buddha, its a practical way to deal with Enlightenment. and maybe even zazen is good . try them, because these practical tools will actually help one to be more fcoused on what is happening in the body and not concepts of mind.................................

[Elzhi]

@Leo Gura I'm curious. What is your opinion on Jed Mckenna's books? He basically says that what you need to do instead is "spiritual autolysis" where you slowly start unraveling all beliefs. From a logical standpoint, it seems like perfectly sound reasoning, considering that the ego is really just a costume of beliefs that we all are wearing.

[Pierre]

You meditate for the pleasure of bathing in the silence of the mind. Otherwise you'd better do something else. This idea of 1000 hours to attain enlightenment is so funny...

[Rito]

On 2/11/2016 at 0:41 AM, Dhana Choko said:

"In order to find what you are looking for, you need to stop searching."

 

Well,imagine a trough of water on a table.When you disturb the table, vibrations cause tremendous ripples on it's surface.If you were searching for a gem on the bottom of the trough,you cant see it anymore.You cant even see your own reflection.

When you search for something very hard,you are causing waves and ripples on the surface and the water even spills out.So what you are searching for is very hard to find as all that churning makes the water a little muddy too.

It is when we stop all that searching,and all the sediments begin to settle down,and the vibrations and ripples die away,  you really begin to see what lies beneath.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Rito