wtf.. war in Europe in 2022?! you must be kidding...

[Ivan Dimi]

WTF!? An underdeveloped third word country with its even more underdeveloped (in any possible sense) like-to-be-hitler dictator attacks an European country without any particular reasons and the whole world is watching?!?! 

@america: Dear Americans, since WW2 all your military involvements have been wrong. So do one thing right... send somebody / something... kill the dog... go home.. life continues as usual... 

[T_i_m]

it's not a third world country. Communists countries used to be called the second world and Russia kind of  inherits that position, still relevant 

[Ivan Dimi]

Without selling natural resources (like Gas etc.) Russia would be basically a failed state with no real economy whatsoever. The GDP of Russia even with all these almost unlimited natural resources and territory is comparable with the GDP of Spain, so do the math...

[something_else]

35 minutes ago, Ivan Dimi said:

without any particular reasons

The Russian government is not retarded. They wouldn't just invade a country if there wasn't a good reason for it

The reason is that if Ukraine joins NATO that is astronomically bad for Russia

[Ivan Dimi]

6 minutes ago, something_else said:

The Russian government is not retarded. They wouldn't just invade a country if there wasn't a good reason for it

The reason is that if Ukraine joins NATO that is astronomically bad for Russia

of course they are some reasons for the sicko to attack. But from the outside neutral perspective there are zero real real reasons for war, It is an act of bulling in its highest form.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Ivan Dimi

[Ivan Dimi]

5 minutes ago, something_else said:

The reason is that if Ukraine joins NATO that is astronomically bad for Russia

Why would be that bad and reason for war? All other eastern europe countries incl. Turkey are already in NATO!

Common, it is obvious they are looking for conflict... look at the history... Hitler started the WW2 exactly the same way...  

[something_else]

1 minute ago, Ivan Dimi said:

of course they are some reasons for the sicko to attack. But from the outside neutral perspective there are zero real real reasons for war, It is an act of bulling in its highest form.

More an act of self-preservation than bullying

They're not invading Ukraine to assert dominance so much as prevent countries like America from asserting dominance over them

America are far bigger bullies than Russia

I'm not saying Russia is right, just that it makes sense why they invaded. They're backed into a corner

[something_else]

4 minutes ago, Ivan Dimi said:

Why would be that bad and reason for war? All other eastern europe countries incl. Turkey are already in NATO!

Common, it is obvious they are looking for conflict... look at the history... Hitler started the WW2 exactly the same way...  

Because it means countries like America can set up massive military forces right on their border and blow them up with missiles in < 5 minutes

If you were an American citizen would you want Russia to position 100 nukes all along the Mexican border? I imagine not

Edited February 24, 2022 by something_else

[Ivan Dimi]

18 minutes ago, something_else said:

More an act of self-preservation than bullying

it is 100% bullying. If Ukraine was part of NATO they would never attack, because it would be a lets say a fair fight. But now attacking a much smaller county with much smaller army... of course. typical bully

18 minutes ago, something_else said:

More an act of self-preservation than bullying

Because it means countries like America can set up massive military forces right on their border and blow them up with missiles in < 5 minutes

In wich way?! I don't get it? Because if Ukraine become part of NATO, NATO would attack RUSSIA and start deliberately WW3.. that is ridiculous assumption, there is zero sense and logic in that fear. Nobody would ever attack Russia or any other atom power country, because of the obvious reason.

and again there are already lots of NATO Countries neighbours with Russia? I didn't see Russia attacking any of them?!

Edited February 24, 2022 by Ivan Dimi

[hello1234]

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/disinformation-about-the-current-russia-ukraine-conflict-seven-myths-debunked/?fbclid=IwAR1usdZ1hU4w_vNLX5WkO8iw9BcxuAngbOkvik1tR8XcZAKEAfF0QSt4GZ8
 

Here is an interesting one. Does anyone have a video where this was verbally promised? I know Chomsky has mentioned this before, but is there actual evidence in recording that this was promised? Logically it doesn’t make sense to me - if NATO always had an open door policy - why would they make such promise? 

Edited February 24, 2022 by hello1234

[Ivan Dimi]

Putin is out of his mind. Hi is probably the best example how to much power can fuck you brain to the point of no return  ''Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely''

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Ivan Dimi said:

it is 100% bullying. If Ukraine was part of NATO they would never attack, because it would be a lets say a fair fight. But now attacking a much smaller county with much smaller army... of course. typical bully

In wich way?! I don't get it? Because if Ukraine become part of NATO, NATO would attack RUSSIA and start deliberately WW3.. that is ridiculous assumption, there is zero sense and logic in that fear. Nobody would ever attack Russia or any other atom power country, because of the obvious reason.

and again they are already lots of NATO Countries neighbours with Russia? I didn't see Russia attacking any of them?!

russia is afraid of losing sphere of influence

if countries like ukraine, georgia, armenia etc. get closer to the west then russia becomes less important and loses sphere of influence

then the resistance against putin in russia etc. might also become bigger and they might get toppled 

and in case of conflict then the west also has huge advantages 

[Ivan Dimi]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

russia is afraid of losing sphere of influence

Wich influence? Of what? Again economically Russia is a third world country, they are not producing any kind of cutting edge technology whatsoever, The only thing what they are doing is selling gas and investing in hacker farms to spread misinformation. This country is basally a house of cards with a middle edge macho dictator using the whole propaganda machine to serve him. Most of the Russians try to emigrate in West Europe to have a better life.  Putin is absolutely delusional and not surpassingly...  after all this years of literally owning the biggest country in the world ones brain get completely fucked up  (again ''Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'')

[something_else]

Just now, Knowledge Hoarder said:

There are 90k US troops spread all over Europe. Russia has now majority of it's military near Ukraine, or in Ukraine. What you're saying is absolute nonsense and fearmongering.

Then why invade? They don't really gain anything at all by invading, do they? If Russia didn't feel threatened they would not have invaded

They aren't retarded, they know that this will bring massive consequences to their country. So presumably they have calculated that those consequences are less severe to them than what happens if they don't invade

I'm not pro Russian, I think it's a terrible country for a variety of reasons. But I can also understand why they did this. It's not because they're just pure evil like OP was suggesting. I was mainly just trying to add some nuance to that perspective of "russia putin big bad bully"

[PurpleTree]

9 minutes ago, something_else said:

Then why invade? They don't really gain anything at all by invading, do they? If Russia didn't feel threatened they would not have invaded

They aren't retarded, they know that this will bring massive consequences to their country. So presumably they have calculated that those consequences are less severe to them than what happens if they don't invade

I'm not pro Russian, I think it's a terrible country for a variety of reasons. But I can also understand why they did this. It's not because they're just pure evil like OP was suggesting. I was mainly just trying to add some nuance to that perspective of "russia putin big bad bully"

so what should the west now do in your opinion?

[something_else]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

so what should the west now do in your opinion?

I have no idea

Like I said, I chimed in here because I disagreed with the IMO kinda silly and basic "Russia putin evil" statement OP was making. I'm no expert on international politics. I just disagreed with that style of thinking because no intelligent group acts out of 'evil', they do what they do for good and just reasons from their own perspective. And I used the admittedly pretty basic knowledge I have on the situation (+ some common sense) to argue that point

 

[Ryan_047]

13 minutes ago, something_else said:

They aren't retarded, they know that this will bring massive consequences to their country. So presumably they have calculated that those consequences are less severe to them than what happens if they don't invade

The entire Russian state is not retarded. Putin and his fascist oligarchy are retarded. This is the line that you need to draw.

Not everything a fascist oligarchy is doing is justified geopolitically. You can't find good reasons for Russia to invade Ukraine because there aren't. What Putin is doing is not the will of the Russian people. The Russian people are emigrating to EU and the US. 

This is a good analysis. Observe that the basis for Russia's aggression is its unwillingness to integrate with the West, rejection of democracy (which contrary to the Russian propaganda, the common folk desires) and the clinging of power by the oligarchy around Putin. This is why. 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

This is the officIal war discussion thread btw:

 

[Ryan_047]

To add to my previous comment, yes Putin is doing what he thinks it's right. I think it's a combination of pure hatred for the West, the desire to hold on to power and restore Soviet borders. Again, it's all for the survival of the idea of a Greater Russia and Putin's identity. 

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, hello1234 said:

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/disinformation-about-the-current-russia-ukraine-conflict-seven-myths-debunked/?fbclid=IwAR1usdZ1hU4w_vNLX5WkO8iw9BcxuAngbOkvik1tR8XcZAKEAfF0QSt4GZ8
 

Here is an interesting one. Does anyone have a video where this was verbally promised? I know Chomsky has mentioned this before, but is there actual evidence in recording that this was promised? Logically it doesn’t make sense to me - if NATO always had an open door policy - why would they make such promise? 

Fair play, I read the linked the article.

If that interview is legit, then it does paint a different picture, albeit not incredibly so:

"Gorbachev: The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990. With regards to Germany, they were legally enshrined and are being observed."