Request to Leo, to make blog post/video about Putin behavior in Ukraine.

[Breakingthewall]

@Ryan_047 agree that some violence is necessary to demonstrate the will to resist and the evil of the aggressor, but how far if you already know the result? better to be practical and leave the ego aside. but that guy wants to mobilize the entire population in arms, etc... they play with the lives of others for their pride, putin and zelenski .

if there is a real reason, for example if your country is going to fall into the hands of the Taliban, you fight to the death, since it is better to die than slavery. but in this case, the Ukrainian on the street will not notice anything, except in his pride and his national feeling. nonsense, life is worth more

[hello1234]

18 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Ryan_047 agree that some violence is necessary to demonstrate the will to resist and the evil of the aggressor, but how far if you already know the result? better to be practical and leave the ego aside. but that guy wants to mobilize the entire population in arms, etc... they play with the lives of others for their pride, putin and zelenski .

if there is a real reason, for example if your country is going to fall into the hands of the Taliban, you fight to the death, since it is better to die than slavery. but in this case, the Ukrainian on the street will not notice anything, except in his pride and his national feeling. nonsense, life is worth more

How do your know that a Ukrainain on the street won’t notice anything? Do you know anything about Ukraine and Russia at all? Ukraine is a democratic country, our people are not scared to express their opinions, we have freedom of speech, we won’t be put into jail for protests and we have no dicktator in power. When you ask a russian celebrity what do they think about the government they laugh at you and tell you “I’m not stupid to answer that kind of question”. It is not about the “pride” it’s about escaping russian regime, having a better life, ending the corruption. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by hello1234

[Ryan_047]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

but in this case, the Ukrainian on the street will not notice anything, except in his pride and his national feeling. nonsense, life is worth more

This is yet another argument that you don't know what you're talking about and have a hippy "spiritual" dogmatic bias. 

The Ukrainian on the street wants a better life, because life in Ukraine sucks. In order to achieve that, they want to join NATO and EU. Why EU? Because EU would help them develop their country, in all economical aspects you can think of. Why NATO? Because Russia has exerted soft power in Ukraine through propaganda, economic blackmail that affects the life of the average Ukrainian, and by forcefully and artificially stealing and creating 3 pro Russian republics, in which many Ukrainians found themselves in against their will. Putin deliberately is trying to stop the integration with the West. 

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

better to be practical and leave the ego aside. but that guy wants to mobilize the entire population in arms, etc... they play with the lives of others for their pride, putin and zelenski .

What you don't understand is that the Ukrainians are fighting for a better life and true democracy, not for the glory of Ukraine or Zelinsky. Zelinksy is not considered a demigod among humans who has been crowned by God himself in order to rule the country. This ain't 18th century red-blue Europe anymore.

Many people in the Russian army are brainwashed indeed, but there is a majority who just found themselves forced into this conflict because mind you, conscription in Russia is mandatory. The average Russian is not fighting for Putin's glory, but because of inertia, group thinking and dire consequences if they refuse to obey orders. 

 

[Breakingthewall]

@Ryan_047 friend, you don't want to understand. I agree with all that. There is nothing hippy in me, what I am saying is: what is the benefit of proposing a total resistance mobilizing the entire population, for two or 3 years, to later end up capitulating and leaving a devastated country, without a single building standing?

[Vrubel]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

God doesn't pick sides

I get it, It just rubs me the wrong way that you can be so indifferent and neutral with such Hitleresque aggression. While at the same time being so passionate about anti-racism, Anti-Maga, etc. 

[Luca001]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Ryan_047 friend, you don't want to understand. I agree with all that. There is nothing hippy in me, what I am saying is: what is the benefit of proposing a total resistance mobilizing the entire population, for two or 3 years, to later end up capitulating and leaving a devastated country, without a single building standing?

Maybe there isn't any benefit, maybe there is, who knows? There are too many variables involved, even an expert could be wrong, what can you know?

Do you expect a country like Ukraine to not defend or resist and put survival needs aside?We are not talking about some egoless community in the middle of Tibet, it's Ukraine.

[Ryan_047]

 @Breakingthewall Why had the Allies fought against Nazi Germany? Because they wanted to stop evil and promote liberal ideas and move the world forward into stage blue-orange. Yes, they were forced into it, but there is an ideological aspect to the whole affair. Why are the Ukrainians fighting Putin's Russia? For survival and for a better life, and to stop dictatorial rule. You have to understand that if the Ukrainians will just do nothing, a worse life is awaiting them, not a better one. And no, you can't expect them to just leave the country and move to Western Europe or North America. That just postpones the real problem and promotes cowardness against injustice. If you don't stand up to evil, both personally and collectively, you'll suffer long term. 

Unfortunately, the Ukrainians are forced to stand up to evil through violence. They can't expect help from the outside without fighting themselves. 

What do you suggest Ukraine do? Succumb to a dictatorship and become a puppet buffer state for Putin's Russia? Because this is what's gonna happen if they don't physically resist and bite, considering all external circumstances. I'm really curios about what you suggest they do instead of fighting.

[Breakingthewall]

@Ryan_047 It is not even similar to the stage of the II ww with this. Russia is not a country with claims of imperialist expansion, regardless of this invasion. What I would do in today's circumstances: 1 stop the resistance today, exile Zelensky since he has proven unable to live with his neighbor, with his radically anti-Russian proposals such as joining NATO, recovering Crimea, etc.

2 total pressure on Russia, economic suffocation, to hold a referendum, by zones, with all the guarantees of legality, on annexation to Russia or independence. allow pro-Russian cities to be Russian.

3 to reach agreements on the neutrality of independent Ukraine, not to suggest further entry into NATO, and guarantee the Russian control of gas pipelines. not one death beyond this week

 It's not perfect but it's better than turning ukraine into aleppo

Edited February 25, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[BlueOak]

Overall there is a certain level of detachment from many here and elsewhere I have witnessed in a time where we would benefit instead from the opposite, from sympathy and understanding. Right now when people need it. That is in me too, I am not immune, I go to fantasy or hopeful reality as well rather than truth. 

[Ryan_047]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Russia is not a country with claims of imperialist expansion, regardless of this invasion.

Wrong. Check out Alexandr Dughin, Putin's personal ideolog. They want to re-establish old soviet borders and have their neighbors as buffers against NATO and China. 

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

exile Zelensky since he has proven unable to live with his neighbor

Yes, a neighbor that violated Ukraine's wishes continuously. Do you even know what was happening in Ukraine post Crimea? Do you even know what happened in Ukraine ever since Putin became dictator up until Crimea? Are you even aware of the soft power Russia is exerting on the ex Warsaw Pact member states through mindwashing, conspiracy, propaganda and funding of pro Russian far right extremist political parties? If you did, you wouldn't say stuff like that. Unfortunately, a neutral attitude that you fancy cannot be adopted when you're stuck between NATO and Russia. In fact, there is no neutral country when conflict is raging near them. If you'll say as counter arguments Sweden or Switzerland in WW2, I can comfortably demolish that through historical facts. You either have a leader that is pro Russian, or anti Russian. And unlike Putin, Zelinsky was democratically elected and thus he represents the wants of the average Ukrainian.

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

3 to reach agreements on the neutrality of independent Ukraine, not to suggest further entry into NATO, and on Russian control of gas pipelines. not one death beyond this week

I like #2, but not this. That means that Ukraine will continue to be at the mercy of Russia, and won't be able to integrate with the West and thus develop the country. In other words, the average Ukrainian will continue to have a shitty life. The fact is that Russia was being a dick to Eastern Europe and Central Asia ever since the Tsarist Empire, and it continues to do so. I guess countries in these areas are justified to not want to be in their sphere of influence anymore, right?

There are no easy answers, but surrendering in the face of evil is not one of them.  

[BlueOak]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Ryan_047 friend, you don't want to understand. I agree with all that. There is nothing hippy in me, what I am saying is: what is the benefit of proposing a total resistance mobilizing the entire population, for two or 3 years, to later end up capitulating and leaving a devastated country, without a single building standing?

That will happen anyway. When a population doesn't want something they resist it. The same as if I were to tell you something you were resisting, you'd resist the comment. Violence and resistance won't end whenever the war does, it will go on for a decade. Its a big place, lots of people, large borders, lots of ways for fighters and arms to get in.

[Breakingthewall]

@Ryan_047 there is a reality: russia exists and is what it is. I understand that you prefer it to be another way, that they tell the Germans who were behind the iron curtain or many others, but it is as it is, and the holy atomic bomb prevents total war, otherwise it would have happened long ago. You have to find a way to live with her, and that way is not humiliating her or showing hostility. for the simple reason that it has military force to bite, so i feel sorry for ukraine but i think that their leaders have acted rashly and stupidly, and now they have to take steps back

[AminB501]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

God doesn't pick sides

And how do you explain that things sometimes get eliminated from the world? For example, Nazis reached a point in time where they earned the response of everyone against them and they got eliminated. Same thing with other things, when somebody get's too selfish and destructive, everything around him starts to chase him and destruct him. 

You struggle to conciliate the idea of everything being subjective, you've been the same a lot of times, and it's honestly very predictable and boring by this point. Some things reproduce and some other things are targeted and destroyed over the long term. "God doesn't pick sides" but someone like a narco or a terrorist, have a higher probability of being killed and tortured than the average person, and they're very miserable people, Putin must be very miserable and unhappy person a well, this is what I call divine response. Same thing that if somebody does good it feels good about himself and it gets good surroundings and circumstances.

[Leo Gura]

Putin's invasion is wrong, relatively speaking.

I am not taking a neutral position. I am just trying to get you to see his perspective. Seeing his perspective does not make invading Ukraine a good move. It's probably not even a good move for Putin. I think he is overreaching on this one, and yes, Ukraine deserves assistance.

With this move Putin has made himself into the bad guy. If he hadn't made this move his position would have been much more understandable and defensible.

I did underestimate his willingness to invade. I thought he would be wiser than that. I don't think this invasion will achieve a better situation for Russia or even Putin. I just don't see how Russia can occupy Ukraine long-term. It's not going to work. So what is the point of all this? It's just going to piss the whole world off against Putin and it will cost many lives, with no real gain.

[Carl-Richard]

@Fleetinglife ❤

[Alex_R]

Ukranie must surrender now to stop all this craziness, im sure they can still have a great economic future while being out of NATO membership

[whatishappeningtome]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Putin's invasion is wrong, relatively speaking.

I am not taking a neutral position. I am just trying to get you to see his perspective. Seeing his perspective does not make invading Ukraine a good move. It's probably not even a good move for Putin. I think he is overreaching on this one, and yes, Ukraine deserves assistance.

With this move Putin has made himself into the bad guy. If he hadn't made this move his position would have been much more understandable and defensible.

Your metaphor of Putin having a gun up to his head if Ukraine were to join NATO was very easy to understand. 

Let's just hope the rest of the world does not get too destablized (i.e. China deciding to take Taiwan) or nuclear war.

[Ryan_047]

1 hour ago, Alex_R said:

Ukranie must surrender now to stop all this craziness, im sure they can still have a great economic future while being out of NATO membership

That's a naïve position. If that was the case, why does living in Ukraine sucks? 

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I just don't see how Russia can occupy Ukraine long-term. It's not going to work. So what is the point of all this? It's just going to piss the whole world off against Putin and it will cost many lives, with no real gain.

His purpose is not annexing Ukraine, his purpose is to permanently keep Ukraine out of integrating with the EU and NATO. If he hadn't intervened militarily now, Ukraine would have been harder and harder to conquer due to its increased military spending and would have continued the integration process with the EU. Once Ukraine would have joined EU (mind you, not necessarily NATO) it would have been over for Russia. There would have been nothing Putin could have done anymore, or at the very least, his economic blackmail would have little effect. One of his biggest fears is a democratic well functioning and prosperous Ukraine. Why? Since Russia and Ukraine are so culturally close, Russians would start questions why the fascist oligarchy that they're living in can't produce the same result that Ukraine in the EU can. That would be the beginning of the end not only for Putin, but for his entire club of fascist friends. 

God is on the side with the best artillery. That's the case unfortunately.  

[Ryan_047]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 i think that their leaders have acted rashly and stupidly, and now they have to take steps back

If you think that continuously letting Ukraine being bullied by Russia is a good solution, there's no helping you in understanding the severity of this subject and the harsh reality of the current geopolitics. Could you please expand on what is rash and stupid about what the Ukrainian leadership has done? 

People here mistake being "multi perspectival", with taking the part and justifying the actions of a dictatorship that has bullied not only its own people, but the neighbors who organically and genuinely chose a different path. This dictatorship refuses change and I think this invasion will dramatically backfire and force change internally in Russia. 

 

[DanTheLurker]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I just don't see how Russia can occupy Ukraine long-term. It's not going to work. So what is the point of all this? It's just going to piss the whole world off against Putin and it will cost many lives, with no real gain.

Can you please elaborate, Leo? Why would he not be able to occupy it long-term?

For now, I am seeing NATO vs Russia as being pretty equal mostly due to the perceived lack of strong leadership in the west. 

Up until now, Russia has only been sanctioned with some economic losses that are going to take weeks for Russia to feel. That seems weak to me coming from the west and if I were Putin that would just make me more confident in going against NATO after I take on Ukraine.

I am from Romania (southern neighbor of Ukraine) and honestly, I am pretty worried that Putin might try to go after us after Ukraine even though Putin would be starting an all-out war with NATO. I feel like Putin might go wild.