Who is responsible for bad actions? Illusory me or Life (God)?

axiom · February 23, 2022

I posted this same reply in another topic but I think it might help here.

Whether or not you consider reality to be a dream, we can say that at least within the dream, all of your thoughts are catalysed by preceding neurochemical processes over which you have no control. It is a straightforward matter to see this happening on brain scans, and in various experiments which show that the motor cortex acts *before* the pre-frontal cortex anticipates the action. The horse is before the cart.

Thus, science (for whatever that’s worth) recognised a long time ago that free will is entirely illusory - hence the hard problem of consciousness: What is the function of awareness when it has zero input into the decisions made by the body (including but not limited to physical movements and language)?

Awareness is just awareness. God does not judge because it literally cannot judge.

Nevertheless, people (human bodies, human brains) suggest there is right and wrong action, and place blame on others for their actions.

A VERY large part of enlightenment, in my view, is the recognition that whatever you previously thought of as "you", i.e. your thoughts and actions, are not in fact "you" at all.

When distilled to the essence of what it is *like* to be you - which is surely the best definition of a "you", it can be noticed that you are the awareness alone. It's shockingly profound when this happens. It is especially very noticeable with practices like Vipassana, wherein you can passively watch your body sitting in extreme pain after many motionless hours... and feel like you're merely watching clouds go by. Total disidentification.

If you still feel like you experience free will as it is commonly postulated, then there is not liberation nor enlightenment.

Edited February 23, 2022 by axiom

Explorer_42 · February 23, 2022

@axiom this is pure gold. Thank you ?

GreenWoods · February 23, 2022

3 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

As a seeming bubble in flowing river water do you want me to keep pushing myself in the opposite direction of the river flowing and spend my whole life in the suffering of failure of not able able to go into the opposite direction of the river?

What do you mean with opposite direction?

From the absolute perspective, You as God are doing everything, in that sense you might say there is only one direction.

There are inherently no different directions. From the relative perspective you can conceptualize/invent different directions. Like becoming a saint or not.

I recommend pretending to be the seperate self in order to be able to be pragmatic and effective in life.

And then when you wake up you have 2 options:

pretend like you still are a self. In order to be more pragmatic or in order to enjoy the dream more. While at the same time being fully conscious how you are God, and these games are just games.
Or you can decide to align the illsuionary self with what you conceptualize to be alignment with high consciousness. Then you can become a saint. It's still just a game, but from the relative perspective, a more conscious and more mature game.

3 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

.According to this understanding, I should just try to do and attain good & disciplined life but in the end, if I face any failure I should not have any regret full thoughts or should not believe in these kinds of thoughts that can cause suffering because this universe, this world, my body are not salve of my mind. everything has to do their own thing and the mind can blame or take credit for these actions but can not control anything.

Right?

Yes. Playing the character is fine. But when life gets tough, it's a good idea to remember that God is doing everything. That you are God and Love and everything is Perfect. And even suffering is actually Love and Bliss, from the egos perspective it doesn't seem like that, because it is misperceiving it.

Muhammad Jawad · February 23, 2022

2 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

@Muhammad Jawad Prior to the thought being created it did not exist. How can that which does not exist create itself?

You have to see it yourself. It can not be described through mind words.

Muhammad Jawad · February 23, 2022

2 hours ago, axiom said:

I posted this same reply in another topic but I think it might help here.

Great. Thanks.

2 hours ago, axiom said:

Whether or not you consider reality to be a dream, we can say that at least within the dream, all of your thoughts are catalysed by preceding neurochemical processes over which you have no control. It is a straightforward matter to see this happening on brain scans, and in various experiments which show that the motor cortex acts *before* the pre-frontal cortex anticipates the action. The horse is before the cart.

Right.

2 hours ago, axiom said:

Thus, science (for whatever that’s worth) recognised a long time ago that free will is entirely illusory

Ok. Yes, that's what I am trying to understand.

2 hours ago, axiom said:

What is the function of awareness when it has zero input into the decisions made by the body (including but not limited to physical movements and language)?

Exactly?

2 hours ago, axiom said:

Awareness is just awareness. God does not judge because it literally cannot judge.

True

2 hours ago, axiom said:

Nevertheless, people (human bodies, human brains) suggest there is right and wrong action, and place blame on others for their actions.

OK

2 hours ago, axiom said:

A VERY large part of enlightenment, in my view, is the recognition that whatever you previously thought of as "you", i.e. your thoughts and actions, are not in fact "you" at all.

Exactly.

2 hours ago, axiom said:

When distilled to the essence of what it is *like* to be you - which is surely the best definition of a "you", it can be noticed that you are the awareness alone. It's shockingly profound when this happens. It is especially very noticeable with practices like Vipassana, wherein you can passively watch your body sitting in extreme pain after many motionless hours... and feel like you're merely watching clouds go by. Total disidentification.

True

2 hours ago, axiom said:

If you still feel like you experience free will as it is commonly postulated, then there is not liberation nor enlightenment.

After all my efforts I have reached to conclusion and can see that I do not have any free will. Things just happen and do not go according to my plans.

So What is your exact specific answer for my initial main question?

Thanks for the precious detailed information.

axiom · February 23, 2022

3 hours ago, Explorer_42 said:

@axiom this is pure gold. Thank you ?

No problem at all, glad you found it interesting or helpful.

1 hour ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

After all my efforts I have reached to conclusion and can see that I do not have any free will. Things just happen and do not go according to my plans.

So What is your exact specific answer for my initial main question?

1. There are no actions for which you are responsible at the human level. The actions just appear to happen, and according to the rules of the dream, could have theoretically been predicted with perfect accuracy aeons ago.
2. There are no "bad" actions, since the notion of "bad" is concocted by thought.
3. God is imagining all actions. As to whether it is "responsible" for its own imagination is hard to say. Rather I think it's more like an infinite feedback loop.

Edited February 23, 2022 by axiom

happyhappy · February 23, 2022

8 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

So it does not matter what actions a person performs in his life?

in an absolute sense, it does NOT!

Muhammad Jawad · February 23, 2022

6 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

What do you mean with opposite direction?

We make plans for the future but we don't know if our plans are synced with Universal Future changes. And then according to universal changes when we fail in our plans then we suffer.

6 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

From the absolute perspective, You as God are doing everything, in that sense you might say there is only one direction.

Yes, I was saying from that perspective.

6 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

There are inherently no different directions. From the relative perspective you can conceptualize/invent different directions. Like becoming a saint or not.

Right

6 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

I recommend pretending to be the seperate self in order to be able to be pragmatic and effective in life.

Ok

6 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

And then when you wake up you have 2 options:

pretend like you still are a self. In order to be more pragmatic or in order to enjoy the dream more. While at the same time being fully conscious how you are God, and these games are just games.

Or you can decide to align the illsuionary self with what you conceptualize to be alignment with high consciousness. Then you can become a saint. It's still just a game, but from the relative perspective, a more conscious and more mature game.

Right so in both cases If I become a saint or ruin my life through wrong/bad actions. It's just a game. If I am conscious that I am not this body-mind but God then there is no suffering during the downfalls of this game. But if I am un-conscious then I may suffer the downfalls. Right?

I have a very noble image or concept of God in my mind and when I live my life through this perspective that I am God But when I do something bad then a thought arises that how a God can do this kind of bad action and then I get confused.

What is your take on this?

6 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

Yes. Playing the character is fine. But when life gets tough, it's a good idea to remember that God is doing everything.

Ok, but is it right to take credit for all the good things I do, and when I do something wrong I just blame God that God is doing everything.

Muhammad Jawad · February 23, 2022

4 hours ago, axiom said:

There are no actions for which you are responsible at the human level.

Right. But what if the ego uses this as an excuse for its wrong actions? Is one allowed or Can one perform any bad actions and after the action can one just think that I am not responsible for that. Actions are just appearing?

4 hours ago, axiom said:

according to the rules of the dream, could have theoretically been predicted with perfect accuracy aeons ago.

Sorry, what does that mean?

4 hours ago, axiom said:

2. There are no "bad" actions, since the notion of "bad" is concocted by thought.
3. God is imagining all actions. As to whether it is "responsible" for its own imagination is hard to say. Rather I think it's more like an infinite feedback loop.

Yes, "bad" action is a thought but how do we verify that this thought is true or false?

Is it not blasphemous to think all kinds of actions (Good/evil) are done by God?

Muhammad Jawad · February 23, 2022

52 minutes ago, happyhappy said:

in an absolute sense, it does NOT!

Right. Thanks. Is there a way to verify this?

axiom · February 23, 2022

2 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

Right. But what if the ego uses this as an excuse for its wrong actions? Is one allowed or Can one perform any bad actions and after the action can one just think that I am not responsible for that. Actions are just appearing?

- The ego might use this as an excuse for its actions, yes. In the same way, the wind blows a cloud. All thoughts, including excuses, are just things happening. Noone controls them.
- "Is one allowed" doesn't come into it. There are no choices to make. Things happen and they are witnessed, but there is noone making them happen.
- Yes, one can perform "bad" actions and after the action can think "I am not responsible for that". All of that can happen, but there is no-one in control of it. There is the illusion of a choice which seems to lead to an action. But all of that is just what is happening. You cannot control any of it.
- "Actions are just appearing" - this is correct.

2 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

Sorry, what does that mean?

In the dream, there is physics. There is cause and effect. As such, we can say that the motion of a group of atoms billions of years ago (for example) eventually resulted in your fingers typing a message here. If a computer had existed - billions of years ago - that was powerful enough to map the position and trajectory of all of the atoms in the universe, then it could have predicted every thought you have ever had with perfect accuracy.

2 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

Yes, "bad" action is a thought but how do we verify that this thought is true or false?

There is noone there to verify whether something is right or wrong, good or bad. Good and bad exist only as ideas. They cannot be verified to exist in reality because they don't exist in reality.

There is no "how do we verify..." either. You are the witness. That is all you are. You are not the witness plus some other set of abilities. You cannot "do" anything or change anything. Your only function is watching.

Edited February 23, 2022 by axiom

Adodd · February 23, 2022

17 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

Then why I can not find myself in my direct experience?

Why can who not find yourself? Did you say "I"? There ya go. That "I" that you speak of is responsible for its own actions. Regardless of if YOU can "find a direct experience of self".