Philosophy > Spirituality

[UDT]

The spiritual "inquiry" into the fundamental nature of knowledge and reality is really not that great and Leo oversold this, I have to say. But I forgive you because the videos on spiral dynamics are worth the detour into the spiritual traps.

Deconstruction is interesting, yet completely useless when it reaches the extremes. It's like a hyperbolic function nearing zero. The returns for your time go towards nothing when you spend more and more time.

Go back to practical philosophy. Develop the principles that act as a guides for your behaviour. And act !

Don't spoil the movie, enjoy the movie. Good to know it is a movie, but if you poked your eyes out finding out - well you are an idiot.

If the world actually would be better, there would be less need for escapism into the mind. 

 

 

 

[vizual]

Deconstruction is actually a big part of philosophy. Derrida comes to mind. In fact, most philosophy isn’t intended to be practical at all, but practicality can be an outcome of a certain philosophy. Objectivism and stoicism come to mind. But it’s more about the underlying principles than just about getting certain outcomes.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Philosophy and spirituality lead to exactly the same place when done correctly.

Both are a search for the Ultimate Answer.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Philosophy, in my opinion, is the incorrect approach. The mind is a question creating factory, and each answer only brings about more questions. Philosophers go on and on chasing their own tails, trapped in their intellect. Spirituality does not require your intellect, rather the opposite. 

[Yali]

2 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Spirituality does not require your intellect, rather the opposite. 

well said @Husseinisdoingfine

Edited February 20, 2022 by Yali

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Just now, Yali said:

well said. @Husseinisdoingfine

Thank you.

The philosopher is only good at thinking about things endlessly, it is a mind approach. Hence, mind is a breeding ground for philosophies, all of which are false. My approach is a no mind approach. Once the mind disappears, all philosophies disappear. 

[Preety_India]

Both are equally important. 

[Yali]

2 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Once the mind disappears, all philosophies disappear. 

and truth remains  @Husseinisdoingfine

[Leo Gura]

41 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Spirituality does not require your intellect, rather the opposite.

God-realization is pure intellect. You cannot do it without intellect.

[Yali]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

God-realization is pure intellect

It's not human intellect. Big difference. @Leo Gura

[softlyblossoming]

Thank you for this amazing food for thought, @UDT. Have you considered that you've arrived at the point in which there isn't anything left to deconstruct but deconstruction itself?

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

God-realization is pure intellect. You cannot do it without intellect.

Hiya, Leo. I recently arrived at an insight via pure intellectual contemplation, and I'd like to know how much of this is God-realization. My insight (each bullet says the same thing with a different phrasing):

• Whatever I completely believe to be the truth is precisely what the truth is in an exact 1:1 relationship.
• The real difference between interpreted reality and directly experienced reality is the completeness of my certainty that my interpretation is accurate. 
• Complete/absolute certainty of the existence of a thing is the existence of a thing AKA if I fully believe that something is what is, then it is what is.
• The real difference between relative and absolute truth: if I completely believe that a truth is true.
  • Relative truth = partial faith in the truth of an interpretation/belief.
  • Absolute truth = complete faith in the truth of an interpretation/belief.
• Complete faith in the existence of a thing is what separates faith from Reality.

Thank you, your work is fantastic.

12 hours ago, Yali said:

It's not human intellect. Big difference. @Leo Gura

Hi, Yali. Could you explain this difference quite briefly? Is it contemplating from a non-dual state of consciousness? If so, which non-dual state of consciousness counts as post-human, or are any non-dual states allowed?

Just to make ultra clear because I feel like I've given that sort of vibe in the past what with how I phrase my questions: I'm not here to debate or argue or give anyone a hard time. Rather, I feel like I really need to grok this piece of the puzzle so I can contemplate correctly.

Thank you, my friend, and best wishes on your path.

[Etherial Cat]

Philosophy > Spirituality is probably the same as saying that Mind > Consciousness.

Philosophy is the art of mind activity in the form of thinking, while Spirituality is the art of Consciousness.

Both are important. But at the end of the day its consciousness which is having a mind, and not the contrary. Descartes notoriously also fell into this trap. It's the biggest trap westerners fall into. 

The identification of consciousness with mind overall also lead to more bias than in a clear, ego-less state. I had a kensho experience a couple months ago, and I'm always surprised at how much crap distort my thinking when my consciousness is super charged with ego activity.

Not being identified with mind, and losing your self-concept makes you realize you couldn't use properly your mind before. So ironically, spirituality leads to better thinking as it clears up one's perception. Lots of biased are removed, when you just "see" things through that state.

Philosophy also can turn into the ultimate ego-mind jerk off, answering problems created at the ego level that disappear in a transcendental state. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Etherial Cat

[Leo Gura]

57 minutes ago, softlyblossoming said:

Hiya, Leo. I recently arrived at an insight via pure intellectual contemplation, and I'd like to know how much of this is God-realization. My insight (each bullet says the same thing with a different phrasing):

• Whatever I completely believe to be the truth is precisely what the truth is in an exact 1:1 relationship.
• The real difference between interpreted reality and directly experienced reality is the completeness of my certainty that my interpretation is accurate. 
• Complete/absolute certainty of the existence of a thing is the existence of a thing AKA if I fully believe that something is what is, then it is what is.
• The real difference between relative and absolute truth: if I completely believe that a truth is true.
  • Relative truth = partial faith in the truth of an interpretation/belief.
  • Absolute truth = complete faith in the truth of an interpretation/belief.
• Complete faith in the existence of a thing is what separates faith from Reality.

Thank you, your work is fantastic.

No, that's not what I mean by intellect. Those are conceptual and logical conclusions which is not the same as God-realization.

[UnbornTao]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, that's not what I mean by intellect. Those are conceptual and logical conclusions which is not the same as God-realization.

Isn’t intellect conceptually-based?

What do you mean by intellect then?

[Guest]

Whatever you think spirituality is, is not it. It's thought.

Thought is an instrument of the creator, to co-create with its creation.

The Self-discovery/co-creation process is the most amazing thing. It can only be the best thing, as this game, which we call life, is designed in this way. Don't ask me why the universe designed itself to be this amazing. It's magnificience makes me blind.

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Isn’t intellect conceptually-based?

No, intellect is an aspect of consciousness. Consciousness is intelligent.

Quote

What do you mean by intellect then?

I have a video called What Is Intelligence?

It's hard to define. But intellect is that aspect of conscious which is understanding and making sense of this communication right now. Right now you are understanding me. You might be tempted to dismiss that as "just concepts", but something way more profound is happening than that. The Universe is literally understanding itself as you listen to me talk. This requires extraordinary intelligence.

We might say that intelligence is a holistic, high-level self-comprehension which transcends concepts & symbols, but also makes use of concepts and symbols.

Without intelligence you couldn't open a can of Coke.

God-realization is similar to opening a can of Coke, but it's a can that requires infinite intelligence to open. The only one who can open this can is God itself, because only God posses sufficient intelligence to do it. You can't understand what you are without intelligence. Which is why just sitting in meditation is not God-realization. When a dog sits in silence it is not grasping what it is or what reality is. It may have a perfectly still mind, but it has no clue what's going on in the metaphysical sense. It doesn't understand where it came from or why it exists. Nor does it even have enough intelligence to care about such things.

Just to ask existential questions like "Why is there something rather than nothing?" or "Where did I come from?" requires extraordinary intelligence which even many scientists lack. The depth of these matters is not being understood by most human minds.

So what I teach is how to access the highest levels of intelligence which are necessary to fully grasp the nature of reality and self.

[axiom]

@Leo Gura Do you wonder whether this distillation of the methods used to approach God consciousness, no matter how precise you try to make them, may ultimately fall prey to Axiom's axiom? : that all methods, descriptions, hypotheses or realisations - no matter how basic or how advanced - must, by definition, be an equal distance from infinity?  There is an epistemic asymmetry that Georg Cantor never resolved - circumscribing the infinite with the finite.

I appreciate the search is extraordinarily seductive, but at some point one's ability to remain functioning within the dream is going to be called into question, and then there will be a choice to make: Stop searching, or dive into a black hole for eternity, never able to get out.

Do you think we are really allowed to know ultimate truth?

As you have hinted at before yourself, the endless rabbit hole of Incompleteness and its implications likely contributed to Godel starving himself to death and to Cantor's incarceration. They crossed the Rubicon and burned the bridge.

Edited February 20, 2022 by axiom

[softlyblossoming]

Thanks, @Leo Gura and @UnbornTao. If you don't mind me asking, is there a clear-cut way to distinguish conceptual and logical conclusions from spiritual insights, and spiritual insights from meditative states like jhana's/samadhi's? Is there a book on your list that discusses this, and would you be open to making an episode about how to distinguish these three?

[UDT]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Philosophy and spirituality lead to exactly the same place when done correctly.

Both are a search for the Ultimate Answer.

No, philosophy is the love for wisdom. 
Wisdom is not the ultimate answer.


By the way - even following your train of thought here,  the ultimate answer then is, do not spoil the movie. 

Which leaves us to extrapolate outwards, away from the core of non duality into practical philosophy e.g how can we act 

You put the ultimate answer on a pedestal, which is your bias. 

 

"But it is the ultimate answer, how can something be more important?" Fool!

What does it matter for Super Mario to know he is in a 2D game developed by some japanese weirdos? 
It does not matter. It is a hobby when he as some spare time or when he is high on the big shrooms. 


If god wouldnt be all loving he would slap you for staring at your hand all day. Go do something tamagotchi  

 

If a gorilla smashes tables at the solipsism annual meetup, I want to see them not running to the exits... Thats the definition of armchair philosophy.

 
 

 

[PeaceOut96]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, intellect is an aspect of consciousness. Consciousness is intelligent.

I have a video called What Is Intelligence?

It's hard to define. But intellect is that aspect of conscious which is understanding and making sense of this communication right now. Right now you are understanding me. You might be tempted to dismiss that as "just concepts", but something way more profound is happening than that. The Universe is literally understanding itself as you listen to me talk. This requires extraordinary intelligence.

We might say that intelligence is a holistic, high-level self-comprehension which transcends concepts & symbols, but also makes use of concepts and symbols.

Without intelligence you couldn't open a can of Coke.

God-realization is similar to opening a can of Coke, but it's a can that requires infinite intelligence to open. The only one who can open this can is God itself, because only God posses sufficient intelligence to do it. You can't understand what you are without intelligence. Which is why just sitting in meditation is not God-realization. When a dog sits in silence it is not grasping what it is or what reality is. It may have a perfectly still mind, but it has no clue what's going on in the metaphysical sense. It doesn't understand where it came from or why it exists. Nor does it even have enough intelligence to care about such things.

Just to ask existential questions like "Why is there something rather than nothing?" or "Where did I come from?" requires extraordinary intelligence which even many scientists lack. The depth of these matters is not being understood by most human minds.

So what I teach is how to access the highest levels of intelligence which are necessary to fully grasp the nature of reality and self.

Makes sense but you are neglecting that contemplating and using your intelligens requires a higher state, that intens meditation can give. You first have to reach a concentrated samedhi state of total silence before contemplating.