A Rant Against Naive Realism Summary

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

Naïve Realism (Materialism) is the actual conception that people have about reality. Our fundamental view is that we live in a 3D space, with objects in it, time progresses linearly and so forth. We think about the universe as a huge 3D box and there are a bunch of physical objects that obey mechanistic laws. There is also a very fundamental assumption: When we close our eyes or turn our back, the world is still there; when we go to sleep, the world is still there; when we die the world will be still there and it was there before we were born.

If you sit down and question this belief system, you will find that it makes no sense on the common sense level, on the rational level, on the scientific and experiential level.

In a direct experience, reality for you is a collection of sensations. Also, your reality is rendered by your brain; it is not physical. But we walk and live thinking that reality is 100% real and reliable. We live in a matrix of phenomena and sensations but they follow very consistent rules. Take into account that an animal like a dog will see a different version of reality.

THE ONLY REALITY FOR YOU IS THE PHENOMENAN FIELD. YOU DIDN’T EXPERIENCE ANYTHING OTHER THAN PHENOMENAN FIELD. Anything more is a belief.

We like to think that there is stuff behind the scenes, but what if there is no stuff behind the scenes.

We treat reality as the “cosmic turtle myth”, the mind is playing games with you. If you look at your phenomenal field for long periods of times, you will realize that there is no stuff behind the scenes. The scene is the only thing there is. “The stuff behind the scene” is a concept.

The materialistic paradigm cannot answer the mind/body problem (the most intimate experience of all). They cannot explain how can mind can arise out of matter and they cannot do it because the assumptions are incorrect.

The paradox here is that when you develop enough awareness, you realize that the stud behind the scene is Nothing and it is there (it is not hidden).

It is so difficult to let go this paradigm because the mind cannot grasp that appearance has no origin but itself. Appearance is existence! It needs nothing to arise. When you realize this, existence becomes mystical and unknown, not mechanistic.

Reality itself is mystical and there will never be a mechanical explanation for it, because it’s Being! Mechanical explanations are useful to manipulate reality, but they cannot explain what is. The good news is that it is possible to have a direct experience of the magic of reality!

Also, quantum mechanics debunk materialism! They say that reality is made of a fields (and they are infinite).

You can prove that reality is mystical to yourself with psychedelics, meditation or self-inquiry.

This is very practical because when you believe that reality is physical, you have materialistic values and behaviors. But when you realize that reality is consciousness, your values and priorities change.

If you want to develop a great life, you need to ask this metaphysical questions.

What Leo is saying is: Space, time, matter, energy are not real. These things had to be created by the mind and are all assumptions. YOU NEED TO UNDERMINE YOUR MATERIALISTIC PARADIGM.

THE WHOLE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU DON’T WANT TO ACCEPT WHAT IS TRUE, AND THE SAD PART IS THAT TRUTH IS SO FUCKING INCREADIBLE THAT YOU CANNOT ACCEPT IT.

[jse]

2 hours ago, Juan Cruz Giusto said:

What Leo is saying is: Space, time, matter, energy are not real. These things had to be created by the mind and are all assumptions.

Spacetime, matter and energy are human concepts, somewhat useful dualistic labels which we humans tend to project on a much deeper and richer reality.  As long as we somehow understand that these are projections of our mind, they are fine.

Indeed, our labels may not be real, but what these cover up is infinitely more real than we can possibly imagine.

[Egoisego]

Here we go again.

 

Dont write here so much anymore because more and more people just scream drugs, drugs are ok but not for me atleast not now

 

I just feel like Leo is doing the usual in the lates video. His ego ranting abagqinst the concept that "everything is real". He still want one concept to be mpre real than another. Leo is obvously not enlightened,  or he could be. Actually he is everything is.

And the comments in the video are pretty cringeworthly really.

 

Everything is real. I would however suggest that you try to let go of those thought that the things you see when you take LSD is more real than any other thought. It is like me saying the pleasure I get from heroin is more real than me feeling pain when somebody is torturing me.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Egoisego

[alifesurreal]

I watched the video yesterday and it was one of the best I've seen so far from Leo. Of course ymmv etc...

A good rant can have it's power and inspiration - I don't think it matters if it involves ego or not.

Either way, that video inspired me to revisit things like the Higgs field and Higgs Boson findings, empty space and quantum mechanics etc. with what Leo said in mind - and that alone was very good for my personal process..

[Egoisego]

1 hour ago, alifesurreal said:

I watched the video yesterday and it was one of the best I've seen so far from Leo. Of course ymmv etc...

A good rant can have it's power and inspiration - I don't think it matters if it involves ego or not.

Either way, that video inspired me to revisit things like the Higgs field and Higgs Boson findings, empty space and quantum mechanics etc. with what Leo said in mind - and that alone was very good for my personal process..

seriously man omg. Its not god

[Egoisego]

Pretty funny also to find Leo throwing in Science which is not needed or even fails to show the truth and then he still.

 

Dont get me wrong, i like enlightenment it is just that everything already is enlightened and i don't like the misguided actions it creates.

Just look at the comments on youtube, a group of people who idealize instead of """searching their own" enlightenment. Pathetic really. Or atleast """"my ego""""" think that way.

Not to even mention that they already have made up there mind about what enlightenment is. LSD, mushrooms and so on. What if the experience you get when you are high is just a experience as all the other you have. Accept them all

I found it sad

Edited January 16, 2017 by Egoisego

[Just Do Nothing]

@Juan Cruz Giusto

Really enjoyed reading that, made me get tingley. Well said bro! 

[aurum]

8 hours ago, Captain Flint said:

OK, please, help me on this.

Having accepted that phenomenal field is the only reality - we come to conclusion, that...
Thought that other people do experience life just as me - is just another thought in my mind (my phenomenal field).

OK, OK. There is no "I" to experience life, there is no "people" to experience life... Yeah.
But I'm 100% sure that there is fenomenal field right now (field that I call "me + outer world"). 

So... What about other's people perspective (phenomenal fields)? Does it "exist" in some way? Or it is just my fantasy and "my" phenomenal field is the ultimate reality?

***

P.S. Yes. I get that "it can't be understood, you can only experience it by taking 31g of mushrooms".
I'm on my way to experience it, just doing grounding work here.

In the dream, yes. People have different subjective experiences and we can use all our rules as we normally would,

Existentially, no. The only "thing" that "exists" is no thing at all. There isn't even a phenomenal field, or "your" phenomenal field. There aren't any phenomenal fields. 

[jse]

21 hours ago, John Flores said:

@jse Right, the main problem is not being open minded to the idea that physicality is not all there is 

Or perhaps more importantly for us, not being open minded to the idea that physicality is not. 

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

9 hours ago, Captain Flint said:

OK, please, help me on this.

Having accepted that phenomenal field is the only reality - we come to conclusion, that...
Thought that other people do experience life just as me - is just another thought in my mind (my phenomenal field).

OK, OK. There is no "I" to experience life, there is no "people" to experience life... Yeah.
But I'm 100% sure that there is fenomenal field right now (field that I call "me + outer world"). 

So... What about other's people perspective (phenomenal fields)? Does it "exist" in some way? Or it is just my fantasy and "my" phenomenal field is the ultimate reality?

***

P.S. Yes. I get that "it can't be understood, you can only experience it by taking 31g of mushrooms".
I'm on my way to experience it, just doing grounding work here.

This is probably going to help you!

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

@Just Do Nothing Thanks man! But they are Leo's words, I just made a summary of his weekly video.

[David1]

 

19 hours ago, Captain Flint said:

So... What about other's people perspective (phenomenal fields)? Does it "exist" in some way? Or it is just my fantasy and "my" phenomenal field is the ultimate reality?

Yes. The only thing you are sure of is that you are conscious. Other people can say that they are conscious, but you'll never know for sure. I can have my computer say it's conscious for that matter. You are the most important person in your life. If you die, 'reality' dies with you.

[aurum]

7 hours ago, Captain Flint said:

I'm quite sure there IS my phenomanl field. I'm not going to deny my experience. Whether it exists as illusion or is it "real" - that is another question

Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. Practically, of course you have a phenomenal field. But that doesn't mean it isn't an illusion.

The idea of a phenomenal field is just an idea. In the same way that money or morality doesn't actually exist, we just all agree upon it for practical purposes.

EVERYTHING, I mean everything you can think of, is just an idea. Even what I'm saying. It has no existence in actual reality.

What is left if everything has no actual existence? What is still True?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

2 hours ago, aurum said:

Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. Practically, of course you have a phenomenal field. But that doesn't mean it isn't an illusion.

The idea of a phenomenal field is just an idea. In the same way that money or morality doesn't actually exist, we just all agree upon it for practical purposes.

EVERYTHING, I mean everything you can think of, is just an idea. Even what I'm saying. It has no existence in actual reality.

What is left if everything has no actual existence? What is still True?

 

How is everything you can think of just an idea? Is what you are seeing and touching just an idea? If so, then what is reality?

What you are saying does have existence in actual reality. First you thought of it, then you wrote it down, you posted it online and now I read it. It exists as pixels on my screen, therefore it does leave a trace in reality and so it can be said to exist. 

 

[aurum]

37 minutes ago, ParanoidAndroid said:

How is everything you can think of just an idea?

Your answer is in your question. Thoughts or thinking of any kind only occurs in the mind. Therefore it's just ideas.

43 minutes ago, ParanoidAndroid said:

What you are saying does have existence in actual reality. First you thought of it, then you wrote it down, you posted it online and now I read it. It exists as pixels on my screen, therefore it does leave a trace in reality and so it can be said to exist. 

No. Realize that what you're reading right now has no meaning unless your mind creates it. If I wrote this in Spanish, unless you spoke Spanish it would be complete gibberish to you. Therefore there is not "inherent" meaning, only the meaning the mind creates.

Prove to me that "pixels" aren't just a label people created to describe a certain set of phenomena.

It's not complicated. In fact, it's stupidly simple what I'm trying to say. Everything you "know' about reality only exists in your mind. But people don't ACTUALLY live their life this way, even if they grasp it intellectually. Intellect is just more mind stuff when it comes to this.

[ParanoidAndroid]

15 minutes ago, aurum said:

Your answer is in your question. Thoughts or thinking of any kind only occurs in the mind. Therefore it's just ideas.

No. Realize that what you're reading right now has no meaning unless your mind creates it. If I wrote this in Spanish, unless you spoke Spanish it would be complete gibberish to you. Therefore there is not "inherent" meaning, only the meaning the mind creates.

Prove to me that "pixels" aren't just a label people created to describe a certain set of phenomena.

It's not complicated. In fact, it's stupidly simple what I'm trying to say. Everything you "know' about reality only exists in your mind. But people don't ACTUALLY live their life this way, even if they grasp it intellectually. Intellect is just more mind stuff when it comes to this.

When I said "How is everything you can think of just an idea?" I didn't mean it literally. Obviously if you think of something it's in your head. I just meant it loosely. It would be better phrased without the "think of" and just as "how is everything just an idea?"

I agree that pixels are just a label that people create to describe a certain set of phenomena. Everything is just flowing phenomena which we label in order to navigate the world. However that doesn't mean that the pixels don't exist. They still exist.

[ParanoidAndroid]

This should maybe be moved to the enlightenment/spirituality section

[aurum]

51 minutes ago, ParanoidAndroid said:

However that doesn't mean that the pixels don't exist. They still exist

Question that belief, don't just brush it off as trivial. On what basis do they exist? Because someone said so?

You've admitted that everything is just arbitrary labels. Existentially, not in terms of "USEFULNESS", what makes anything real then?

Show me something real. Better yet, show yourself.

1 hour ago, ParanoidAndroid said:

It would be better phrased without the "think of" and just as "how is everything just an idea?"

If you never had a single thought, there would be nothing. You wouldn't even have the concept of existence or non-existence. There would be no you, no God, no science, no philosophy, no morals, no ideas about spirituality, no mind, no universe, no enlightenment, no ideas about realness, no ideas about nothingness, NO BELIEFS OF ANY KIND.

There'd only be ...............................

We can't describe it.

But we do think. And THINKING is what makes us feel like there are things happening, and that somethings are true and some are false. That somethings are "real" and somethings aren't. That there's anything at all, happening anywhere at any time.

Absent of thinking of thinking, it's just fucking nothing.

So yes, everything that we say "exists" is just an idea. We created it in our "minds", and it has NO REALITY outside our own minds. There are no "people" or "places" or "things" or anything OUT THERE.

[ParanoidAndroid]

9 minutes ago, aurum said:

Question that belief, don't just brush it off as trivial. On what basis do they exist? Because someone said so?

You've admitted that everything is just arbitrary labels. Existentially, not in terms of "USEFULNESS", what makes anything real then?

Show me something real. Better yet, show yourself.

If you never had a single thought, there would be nothing. You wouldn't even have the concept of existence or non-existence. There would be no you, no God, no science, no philosophy, no morals, no ideas about spirituality, no mind, no universe, no enlightenment, no ideas about realness, no ideas about nothingness, NO BELIEFS OF ANY KIND.

There'd only be ...............................

We can't describe it.

But we do think. And THINKING is what makes us feel like there are things happening, and that somethings are true and some are false. That somethings are "real" and somethings aren't. That there's anything at all, happening anywhere at any time.

Absent of thinking of thinking, it's just fucking nothing.

So yes, everything that we say "exists" is just an idea. We created it in our "minds", and it has NO REALITY outside our own minds. There are no "people" or "places" or "things" or anything OUT THERE.

The pixels exist in some sense because I can see them. This discussion really begs the question of what do you mean by real or to exist? If they didn't exist I wouldn't be able to see them.

I've admitted that we put arbitrary labels on things but that doesn't mean that stuff isn't real. You still see the stuff in front of your eyes regardless of whether you label it or not. The labelling is just a dissection or categorising of reality but it doesn't mean that the stuff we dissect doesn't exist at all. If it didn't exist then we couldn't dissect it.

You say that reality doesn't exist without thought, but what about someone who is enlightened or has had some kind of enlightenment experience where they are experiencing no thought whatsoever but only awareness. Reality still exists for them does it not? We could also use the example of a newly born baby. The baby has no ideas or thought about the world but yet it still experiences the world. It's possible to experience reality in the absence of thinking and reality is still there. This shows that it's not just an idea, surely.

Or are you arguing that reality is simply not physical? Even if it is not physical it still exists, simply by virtue of you experiencing it. 

[aurum]

10 minutes ago, ParanoidAndroid said:

The pixels exist in some sense because I can see them. This discussion really begs the question of what do you mean by real or to exist? If they didn't exist I wouldn't be able to see them

In a practical sense, yes. Of course. I'm saying let's go deeper. I'm saying the concepts of "I", "pixel", "seeing", "them" don't have any real existence. They're MODELS of reality, not reality itself. Can you see the significance of this?

13 minutes ago, ParanoidAndroid said:

If it didn't exist then we couldn't dissect it

If you really grasp what I'm saying, you'll see it's the other way around. If we didn't dissect it, it wouldn't exist.

14 minutes ago, ParanoidAndroid said:

You say that reality doesn't exist without thought, but what about someone who is enlightened or has had some kind of enlightenment experience where they are experiencing no thought whatsoever but only awareness. Reality still exists for them does it not?

Well I've had one of those enlightenment experiences. Here is what it's like and what I found true:

....

....

....

....

....

....

....

...nothing

Again, in a practical sense of course you could say there's "something". It's not like wherever you were standing disappears and you're floating in like a giant black hole or anything.

But on a deeper level, without ANY thoughts, there's no interpretation of any kind. That's what existence (and non-existence) is: an interpretation in the mind.

So you're not "experiencing" anything. It's just a blank.

Step into their shoes of someone who is having that experience. Honestly explain to me what someone is experiencing when they're not thinking AT ALL.

Can you do it?