Second Girl To Bed, Still No Sex

[Roy]

23 minutes ago, Gregory1 said:

It's very childish and honestly a disfavour to the real rape-victims to call this "rape." Calling this rape means that basically any sex could be called rape....

You aren't mature or nuanced enough to have this discussion if you think she is conflating violent rape with just being uncomfortable and not being able to say no because of lack of assertiveness. She literally said she felt unsafe and you're invalidating that with your language. Yes it's her responsibility to say "no" verbally, but just because it's the logical answer doesn't make it "simple" in your words.

It may not technically be legal rape but just because it doesn't check a box in a courtroom it doesn't take away from her experience of being violated. Yes she consented, but that guy also should have been able to read her signals and come to a point where he asks HER if she wants to have sex. When you're with a woman who is extremely feminine and timid, you have to do a bit of the legwork for her. Too bad. You don't just get to take advantage, and then wave off the fact you're taking advantage because they aren't a good at negotiating.

It takes two people to have sex, it's not a binary of one making the decision or the others. You have to discover the boundary together sometimes. It's never "simple".

If things were "simple" we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. The issue is the word "rape". It does too much legwork. Violated or exploited are better words for the lower end of the rape spectrum.

[SgtPepper]

@Etherial Cat

I believe you.

[integral]

@Etherial Cat To Leo these games are highly unnatural where to others is so natural they don't know there playing games. For people who it comes natural everything just falls into place and the woman will be attracted to you. To the autistic man with no social calibration, they could be the perfect man and no one will see it. 

Its natural to you so your not seeing what he means by games. What he would describe as playing games you would describe as basic socializing. 

 

[Gesundheit2]

17 minutes ago, integral said:

@Etherial Cat To Leo these games are highly unnatural where to others is so natural they don't know there playing games. For people who it comes natural everything just falls into place and the woman will be attracted to you. To the autistic man with no social calibration, they could be the perfect man and no one will see it. 

Its natural to you so your not seeing what he means by games. What he would describe as playing games you would describe as basic socializing.

Nonsense. Even the top celebrities talk and sing about swagger.

Swagger basically means playing all the games perfectly while pretending that no games are being played at all. It's the same when women wear make-up, follow strict diets, do cosmetic procedures, then pretend that they're all real and natural. It's only to strengthen the illusion and create a better experience.

[Gesundheit2]

13 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

I gave in because I was afraid he'd start beating me up, and I would be overpowered.

If he had offered you a drink, would you have thought it was poisoned?

[Pavement]

@Gregory1 can’t you read?  She said she told him no.  Strange everyone is overlooking that part. 

[PurpleTree]

18 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

To make it clear, I said "no" firmly a hundred times. Even on this thread, it seems like it gets lost. ?

I was not interested in him so what came out of me was some firm no and deep friend zoning. And frankly, nobody can miss my no, nor my lack of interest. Beside, he knew it well because he kept crying in a pathetic way, asking why I didn't want him at least 20x.

He came into a bed I didn't want him in, and him sleeping somewhere else was part of the deal so I would come to his place. He kept crossing boundaries over boundaries. He was making a tantrum and his behavior was emotionally unhinged. I gave in because I was afraid he'd start beating me up, and I would be overpowered. I had no more strenght due to sleep depravation. 

There was no kisses, nor any type of escalation ahead of that event. Even meanwhile. Thank God. 

The moment he was done and had relaxed, I packed my stuff and left anyway. Never saw him again.

That's very sad.

I've had women in my bed sometimes naked sometimes just buddies and never pushed.

In hindsight i thought maybe some of them would actually wanted me to push a little bit but it just feels too creepy to me i guess, it's probably the other extreme which also isn't healthy. I have gotten better at that i think though.

Should men push sometimes and if they get a first no that's it?

[Pavement]

1 hour ago, K Ghoul said:

Riding a cock-carousel while playing hard to get games, all at the same 

Being in a committed relationship yet cheating on that person, not being able to stay loyal.

Having transactional relationships - withholding sex unless he gives/does something for her (exchanging her sex for his spending money on her)

 

And who are you to judge them exactly? Do you have anything to bring to this thread apart from misogynistic judgemental comments and vulgar language, why bother?  

[K Ghoul]

Just now, Pavement said:

And who are you to judge them exactly? Do you have anything to bring to this thread apart from misogynistic judgemental comments and vulgar language, why bother?  

I don’t see anything misogynistic about what I wrote nor do I think it’s your place to decide how and what I post. A person asked for my opinion, I answered. 

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

I get the struggle. 

It's about feeling the energy in the moment. So that's super hard to map. It's about reading the numerous type of expression she might give you.

It depends on what she lets you do and how receptive she is to your escalation.

Yeah but i'll often not escalate at all and want her to escalate. Or at least i did especially in those "partying" times a few years ago.

But i'd still rather they escalate than me, just to be sure, to not make them uncomfortable and also to not get rejected  

But in many of those cases it'd probably be better to push a little bit until you get a no.

[Michal__]

10 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

This is exactly a prime example of a man with zero game.

Not exactly a man, since he's a rapist : D

[PurpleTree]

Well thank you @Etherial Cat 

RSD Ethereum Cat to the rescue ?

[Seed]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Well then, don't cry to me about the drama your games create.

You play enough games and eventually you'll get out-played.

I don't see it as 'outplayed' when the outcome is both having satisying, consentual sex? 

I am with you that women play games, but they know they are doing it and they know it is all part of the thrill of the chase. So ending in sex is a win for both sides surely?  

It is like both are working towards a mutual outcome but have diff ways of going about about it. How is that being outplayed when that is what the woman wanted anyway? It's actually the opposite.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

@Leo Gura

I would also not be surprised if you also feel slightly bitter, resentful and disappointed you have/had to resort to this type of games to get love and sex. And the thought it correlated with you becoming successful in general in life makes you even more distrustful of women.

Yes, I had to resort to it because that is what's realistically required to get laid.

The idea that you can "just be yourself" and hot women will sleep with you is childish. That's not how it works.

It's not so much that I have had to resort to games, it's that I taught myself the games that everyone else was already playing but I wasn't.

I'm not distrustful of women. I have a very positive view of women and I have no problem trusting a girl after sex. I just understand the games they play until sex.

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Female attraction is energetic, and you gaining confidence in yourself, getting yourself out and showing portion of your personality is the reason why you attract them. And not these techniques. These techniques if anything are bitting you in the ass.

Gaining confidence is the technique.

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You're perfectly loveable and worthy of affection. You don't need them.

Haha

You frame it as though I use some kind of secret tricks to trick women into bed. That's not what I do. I just understand how to approach, how to flirt, how to be humorous, how to have fun, how to deal with loud and chaotic environments, how to deal with bitchy friends, how to deal with guys stealing my girls, how to lead, how to handle logistics, how not to get used by girls, where to take girls, how to text girls, how to escalate, how to make her feel comfortable with me, how to get her horny, how to deal with her bullshit, and how to give her great sex. These are practical skills that any guys who's serious about women needs to develop regardless of how lovable he is.

It doesn't matter how lovable you are if you don't know how to touch a girl without creeping her out.

Being lovable and worthy of affection does not get a guy laid any more than it gets a guy a house to live in. Women will not fuck a guy just because he is lovable.

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If anything, reading about how you perceive relationship is the biggest bummer about you. And this general distrust must be complicated to deal with.

You don't know how I perceive relationships. You assume a lot about me.

I talk about attraction here, not relationships.

I would not distrust my girlfriend.

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but what you want is ultimately someone who will do its best to keep your best interest at heart and who's overall behavior goes in this direction.

Obviously.

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There is no need to close ASAP.

That's from your female POV.

Yes, there is no need from your POV as a female to close fast when you got 10 dudes orbiting you, wanting your pussy.

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I think the real reason behind wanting to close fast is believing women weaponize sex

No, the real reason is because attracting women costs a lot of time and energy for guys, and until sex women are completely flakey, uninvested, disloyal, and unreliable. I don't want to waste my time investing in women who are flakey. I got better things to do. Women don't weaponize sex, they just act so flakey it wastes a lot of time.

Dealing with that flakiness is 50% of game.

3 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

To make it clear, I said "no" firmly a hundred times. Even on this thread, it seems like it gets lost. ?

I was not interested in him so what came out of me was some firm no and deep friend zoning. And frankly, nobody can miss my no, nor my lack of interest. Beside, he knew it well because he kept crying in a pathetic way, asking why I didn't want him at least 20x.

He came into a bed I didn't want him in, and him sleeping somewhere else was part of the deal so I would come to his place. He kept crossing boundaries over boundaries. He was making a tantrum and his behavior was emotionally unhinged. I gave in because I was afraid he'd start beating me up, and I would be overpowered. I had no more strenght due to sleep depravation. 

There was no kisses, nor any type of escalation ahead of that event. Even meanwhile. Thank God. 

The moment he was done and had relaxed, I packed my stuff and left anyway. Never saw him again.

Well, that guy seem kinda weird. I'm not saying what he did was right. There's definitely the possibility of being too pushy or taking advantage of a girl. I'm all about making sure the girl is satisfied with the sex and there is proper foreplay and all that good stuff. I love foreplay.

I know guys who take advantage of women in ways like that and much worse. I definitely don't endorse such behavior from men. The bottom line is the girl needs to be satisfied with the sex. That's my rule of thumb. Make it so she doesn't regret sleeping with you. It all boils down to that.

[Gregory1]

4 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

If he had offered you a drink, would you have thought it was poisoned?

@Gesundheit2 from what she wrote before I guess the answer would be a "yes"...

[Gregory1]

4 hours ago, Pavement said:

@Gregory1 can’t you read?  She said she told him no.  Strange everyone is overlooking that part. 

@Pavement

She didn't tell him "no." A no is clear, strict, brutal. Not shy, flimsy, and obviously her no was not a real "no." Since she agreed to have sex in spite of her "nos"...

Edited February 18, 2022 by Gregory1

[K Ghoul]

7 minutes ago, Gregory1 said:

@Pavement

She didn't tell him "no." A no is clear, strict, brutal. Not shy, flimsy, and obviously her no was not a real "no." Since she agreed to have sex in spite of her "nos"...

I don’t think assertiveness is most women’s strength, especially when they are young. They can easily get scared and intimidated and comply to avoid escalating into a potentially worse situation- she could have irritated him to the point of him getting violent, who knows what kind of psycho he actually was, maybe the other roommate would join and they would then gangbang her together. 

@Etherial Cat Btw did you tell about what happened to your other friend? you mentioned that this guy was a friend’s friend.

[Gregory1]

22 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

I don’t think assertiveness is most women’s strength, especially when they are young. They can easily get scared and intimidated and comply to avoid escalating into a potentially worse situation- she could have irritated him to the point of him getting violent, who knows what kind of psycho he actually was, maybe the other roommate would join and they would then gangbang her together. 

@Etherial Cat Btw did you tell about what happened to your other friend? you mentioned that this guy was a friend’s friend.

Spinning horror movies in your head won't help.. Not realistic.

 

[K Ghoul]

1 minute ago, Gregory1 said:

Spinning horror movies in your head won't help.. Not realistic.

 

I agree. But I don’t want to come off as insensitive and tell her how she could have avoided it and how I would have done it instead- she suffered PTSD from this, and that’s what matters right now. Hopefully she at least learned to not go for a sleep over to a man’s house whom she doesn’t know well (the fact that he was a friend’s friend lowered her defenses, I guess)

[Gesundheit2]

8 hours ago, K Ghoul said:

I agree. But I don’t want to come off as insensitive and tell her how she could have avoided it and how I would have done it instead- she suffered PTSD from this, and that’s what matters right now.

 

I'm not heartless nor insensitive. I would have talked very differently if it had happened last night, but the story is 11 years old, for God's sake. However, I do realize I was perhaps more "logical" than I should have been, so I'll work on that in the future.

But the problem you guys have and do not see is that you think you're being helpful by acting all-supportive and emotional, but in reality you're not doing anyone here a favor. 11 years and still unresolved trauma. Why? It's because no shift in perspective nor a recontextualization of that experience have occurred, not because there's not have been enough virtual comforting and support.

Yeah, man. Shit happens, so what? I have endured a 7 years long civil war, and I was on the brink of death a number of times, literally escaping sudden death or getting permanently handicapped/dismembered by a slight margin for at least three times, once it was an air strike, and twice it was a mortar bomb, one of them hit the very next room in the neighboring building while I was asleep, and the other completely destroyed my bedroom when I went to the toilet. That's a plethora of PTSDs for ya. But you don't see me talking about that all the time, whining and complaining every time the topic of war is brought up. You may rarely see me hinting at it in my journal if you ever read it, and it might still be somehow reflecting on my behavior till this day, but you don't see me running around crying about it as if it's the end of the world. Because of how I often conduct myself, most people assume that my life is perfect and they treat me as a normal person, so when I make a mistake or talk inappropriately they respond like they would with a normal person, which is exactly what I want because that's how you return to being a normal person. I have evidence for this because I have improved in less than 5 years and am still improving, even though I endured an actual war that lasted for years, let alone the rest of my traumatic past.

The truth is that I deliberately try to avoid telling my stories especially here because I know how everyone will respond. You will all try to comfort me virtually and say that you're sorry and all that empty hippy nonsense, and then I can act like a tyrant and use my stories as a defense to deflect any criticism by appealing to your morality and emotions, and you will give me excuses and leeway for being an unconscious asshole (the last one actually happened before with a mod, and it reflected poorly on me in retrospect). Hippies are so easy to manipulate. But you know what? I don't want any of that. It means nothing to me. It's not just useless, but also even harmful. Because it will keep me stuck in the past like a victim instead of helping me move on forwards towards a better future. When you tell me you're sorry I had to go through such and such, what you're communicating to me is that I have been abused, so I am permanently damaged and can't recover let alone overcome and improve, so I shall receive special treatment for the rest of my life and cater to people's sympathy instead of my own authority, and that's how you destroy every chance for recovery for me. I told some of my story once and people started giving me special treatment, which I truly hated and regretted. So by all means forget about my story and simply take the moral that I'm trying to communicate here. That a lot of victimhood is actually a mentality that you should be careful not to reinforce, because the more you reinforce it the longer it will stick with you and the worse it will get. There needs to be some balance, which I admit I might have lacked in my approach, so again I'll work on that.

I believe that every experience is a learning opportunity, not a scar that you take to your grave. Take responsibility, try to see things from a different perspective, express yourself but don't take it too far, don't take things personally, etc... That's how you heal yourself and grow. At least, that's what is working for me. It's not a sweet pill to swallow, but medicine is not always sweet, and life doesn't always work like we want it to. Don't underestimate the power of mindset. It can make or break you, and I know people who got broken for much less than either of our cases here.

That being said, I'll take a break from posting for a couple of days in which I will reflect and try to improve. In the meantime I will also be reading the rest of this thread if there's gonna be any.
Ciao for now.

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Hopefully she at least learned to not go for a sleep over to a man’s house whom she doesn’t know well (the fact that he was a friend’s friend lowered her defenses, I guess)

I agree. That's a healthy attitude.