Confused About Buddahism "no Soul" Concept And Rebirth

[100rockets]

I was reading about this concept in Buddhism that there is no soul because there is no self. I get the no self concept in the physical world but they say there cant even be a soul because thats a self too..we are really all one the separation is an illusion. I get that but then how can they claim there is reincarnation and rebirth at the same time? Are they saying that rebirth is just a natural process that will be experienced by some random spec of consciousness?

Who ever is being reborn, is that not you? will it not be your own consciousness that is experiencing a new form of life?

Edited January 15, 2017 by 100rockets

[Aware]

You are the result of your thinking, heir of your thinking, the accumulation of your thinking.

Means, if you believe you are your body, then this is a result of your previous thinking. While you are thinking now, which also leads to its result.

In this case, death is just the end of that belief.

 

However, no phenomenon, both inside or outside, is containing a self, its empty in nature. Therefor, all things are soulless. There is no "you" that then has this soul if all things are temporary. If you really want to grasp this, you will have to really investigate how both inside and outside phenomenon are equally empty, which is due to that, not you, of you, me, them, ours, because it can't hold.

 

 

[Guivs]

My small understanding is that even though there is no independently existing self from its own side, what is seemingly reincarnated is karma and ignorance.

 Therefore, if liberation were to occur, one would realize the selflessness of all phenomena and realize that even the concept of birth and death, karma, and reincarnation were also dreamlike. But until one truly experiences it and is no more afflicted by any phenomena such as cold and heat, suffering and so on, the law of cause and effect still has to be considered in high esteem I would say  

[100rockets]

@Aware I cant really grasp that, it's all very abstract. Even if its an illusion I'm still the only one that experiences the illusion of me. Nobody else does

[100rockets]

8 minutes ago, Guivs said:

My small understanding is that even though there is no independently existing self from its own side, what is seemingly reincarnated is karma and ignorance.

But who, what is going to experience the result of that karma and ignorance being reincarnated?

[Aware]

@100rockets How do you know that?

 

What if there is just one ME, and multiple illusions, that is still one illusion?

[Guivs]

Investigate and do not take any answer for granted, look deeply. This is a great question to contemplate  

[100rockets]

15 minutes ago, Aware said:

What if there is just one ME, and multiple illusions, that is still one illusion?

Still, every illusion is a separate illusion, I cant hear your thoughts or think I am your ego. I (whatever that I is) only experience one illusion

[Aware]

@100rockets Well, my real question is, how can you be sure about that? How do you know, and what can you know about it?

 

 

[100rockets]

20 minutes ago, Guivs said:

Investigate and do not take any answer for granted, look deeply. This is a great question to contemplate  

 

I am. It's actually very frustrating

[100rockets]

@Aware I only know from my experience. Is there a way to experience being someone else? I know there is a concept in meditation (I'm not sure what its called) that you can experience being one with a tree or some other thing, Leo spoke about it once. Would that get me any closer to grasping this?

[Dodo]

37 minutes ago, Guivs said:

My small understanding is that even though there is no independently existing self from its own side, what is seemingly reincarnated is karma and ignorance.

 Therefore, if liberation were to occur, one would realize the selflessness of all phenomena and realize that even the concept of birth and death, karma, and reincarnation were also dreamlike. But until one truly experiences it and is no more afflicted by any phenomena such as cold and heat, suffering and so on, the law of cause and effect still has to be considered in high esteem I would say  

Law of cause and effect should definitely be considered highly! It is the way this dream works 

[Aware]

@100rockets I think that that indeed can be very valid for your investigation indeed!

 

Maybe it leads to, many different you's, and eventually getting into the more subtle versions of you.

But all of these are phenomenon, that can't hold, so the law, the knowledge about coming and going, and how they relate, that truly is important. 

But yes, go ahead, try rather you actually can experience someone else, or that this is still you. And why this must be so.

[100rockets]

@Aware Hmm do you know what that phenomenon is called?

[Prabhaker]

1 hour ago, 100rockets said:

I get that but then how can they claim there is reincarnation and rebirth at the same time?

Hindus believe in God and the soul. Jainas don't believe in God at all but only in the soul. And Buddhists don't believe in the soul or God either. But about reincarnation all three agree — even Buddhists agree, who don't believe in the soul. A very strange thing…then who reincarnates?

Even Buddhists could not deny the phenomenon of reincarnation, although they could deny the existence of the soul; they say the soul does not exist but reincarnation exists. And it was very difficult for them to prove reincarnation without the soul; it seems almost impossible. But they found a way — of course it is very subtle and very difficult to comprehend, but they seem to be closer, the closest to the truth.

It is easy to understand that there is a soul and when you die the body is left on the earth and the soul enters into another body, into another womb; it is a simple, logical, mathematical thing. But Buddha says there is no soul but only a continuum.

It is like when you kindle a candle in the evening and in the morning when you are blowing it out a question can be asked of you: Are you blowing out the same light that you started in the evening? No, it is not the same light, and yet a continuity is there.

In the night when you lit the candle… that flame is no more there, that flame is continuously disappearing; it is being replaced by another flame. The replacement is so quick that you can't see the gaps,  one flame going out, another coming up, that going out, another coming up. There are bound to be small intervals, but you can't see them with bare eyes.

Buddha says that just as the candle flame is not the same — it is changing constantly, although in another sense it is the same because it is the same continuum — exactly like that, there is no soul entity in you like a thing but one like a flame. It is continuously changing, it is a river.

Buddha does not believe in nouns, he only believes in verbs. He has come closest to the truth; at least in his expression he is the most profound.

[Aware]

@Prabhaker I explained this in my book as sunlight and a tree. Even though the tree ends, the light goes on transforming.

[Leo Gura]

The Hindu model of Atman/Brahman may help clear up this confusion.

You are both an individuated unit of consciousness (Atman) and Absolute Infinity (Brahman).

"The soul" can also refer to other mystical phenomena besides this.

[Deep]

5 hours ago, 100rockets said:

I was reading about this concept in Buddhism that there is no soul because there is no self. I get the no self concept in the physical world but they say there cant even be a soul because thats a self too..we are really all one the separation is an illusion. I get that but then how can they claim there is reincarnation and rebirth at the same time? Are they saying that rebirth is just a natural process that will be experienced by some random spec of consciousness?

Who ever is being reborn, is that not you? will it not be your own consciousness that is experiencing a new form of life?

Consciousness has made an identity called "Deep". This identity is imaginary so there is no such thing as a separate "Deep" from Consciousness. It's all created within my mind. That's how it is with all the other humans. The illusion is so powerful they believe they are that identity and they are experiencing life as that. Reincarnation is just a concept to explain Consciousness taking on many identities. Consciousness is continuous but there are individual egos within it. Why does it do this? We don't know. 

 

[eskwire]

7 hours ago, 100rockets said:

@Aware I cant really grasp that, it's all very abstract. Even if its an illusion I'm still the only one that experiences the illusion of me. Nobody else does

The body breathes itself, the senses sense themselves, the ego creates itself. The illusion of your ego is experiencing the illusion of self. How can consciousness experience an illusion? Then it would not be conscious. 

Keep meditating to have different experiences. You won't be able to think your way into understanding what @Aware is saying. 

[100rockets]

On 1/15/2017 at 9:10 PM, Leo Gura said:

You are both an individuated unit of consciousness (Atman) and Absolute Infinity (Brahman).

This model makes a lot more sense!