Sensory Experience Proves There's A Me

[Samuel Garcia]

The video posted on ''Naive Realism' got me thinking:

An enlightened women, Byron Katie, said in an interview to a women who questioned about being at peace with world hunger, that it isn't true that people are hungry. I instantly disagreed in my mind. Yes, the thought 'people are starving in the world' is a thought. Yes, what I have of reality is sense perception. But doesn't that implies that there is a 'me' because if my body dies, my thoughts and sense dies as well so I cannot perceive the world no longer, yet other people lives still go on.

So surely there are people hungry around the world -- I just don't perceive it because my sensory perception isn't everything. My sensory perception is everything to me as without it I have nothing on the world to perceive. So surely there is a me, right? So how is there no hunger in the world? Of course, this is just one example of anything. How do people not exist if I can't see them? How is there no external world? I assume enlightenment will show me the answer. 

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Samuel Garcia
Title

[Deep]

@Samuel Garcia Some of these enlightened people are deluded and they delude others. Telling people there is no hunger is complete bullshit. You can experience everything as one consciousness only when you experience Absolute Infinity. Your ego dies during that time but it comes back during everyday life. 

 

[Aware]

Keep it plain.

That is then what this woman, Byron Katie said.

And that what you think, is what you think, and be clear about it, not doubtful. Leave it at that.

 

[Guivs]

I'm afraid that these days, much  is said about the absolute truth of phenomena, emptiness, all is mind and so on, and that there is a dangerous disregard for conventional truth indeed, in particular amongst "new age" spirituality. Such people making those statements in front of anyone are more than likely harming themselves and others, sadly... Of course, it might help some.

Even though it seems they do not attach to anything, they hold absolute truth higher than conventional truth, creating dualism in their so called "non duality ".

 

[Dodo]

If a thought is making you unhappy, and you cant help others, its better to not think it.

But what Byron Katie supposedly is doing is turning a negative thought into a positive one and spreading that thought (which is designed to make her happy), which in my opinion is wrong, because it might affect people who actually can help world hunger.

[Leo Gura]

There is hungry child when he appears before you. Otherwise, it's just an image in your mind.

This requires mindfulness practice to see.

Try doing the practical enlightenment exercises I pinned to the top of this sub-forum. Those will develop mindfulness in you so you can understand what is being said here.

[jse]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is hungry child when he appears before you. Otherwise, it's just an image in your mind.

Following on the theme of "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"

4 million people died during the terrible Second Congo War (1998–2004), mostly from starvation and disease.  They didn't appear before me, so I guess this tragedy was just an image in my mind.

Edited January 16, 2017 by jse
link added

[electroBeam]

 

12 hours ago, Samuel Garcia said:

 if my body dies, my thoughts and sense dies as well so I cannot perceive the world no longer, yet other people lives still go on.

Yeah and I also believe that when i die in gta 5, singly player, the screen goes black, but I know, i truely know that no other characters in gta 5 will die as well. They are out there somewhere, its just that my screen has turned off and i cannot see them. I dont have any proof of this, but I definitely know its true. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, jse said:

4 million people died during the terrible Second Congo War (1998–2004), mostly from starvation and disease.  They didn't appear before me, so I guess this tragedy was just an image in my mind.

That's exactly what it is, FOR YOU!

The greater tragedy is not being mindful of what is concept and what is experience.

[jse]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's exactly what it is, FOR YOU!

The greater tragedy is not being mindful of what is concept and what is experience.

It's more than an image for me, Leo - there is an element of Empathy  involved, a common human trait.

[Leo Gura]

@jse That empathy is also a sensation to become mindful of.

Don't cling to your humanity so much that it keeps you from discovering your divinity

[Emerald]

On 1/15/2017 at 6:09 PM, Leo Gura said:

There is hungry child when he appears before you. Otherwise, it's just an image in your mind.

This requires mindfulness practice to see.

Try doing the practical enlightenment exercises I pinned to the top of this sub-forum. Those will develop mindfulness in you so you can understand what is being said here.

This can be quite a harmful assumption to make about the nature of reality. You don't really know one way or another whether there is a hungry child if he is not there before you right now. It is not actually knowable by anyone, no matter how enlightened a person becomes. We all conceptually know exactly nothing about the nature of reality. So, it is probably best, in these instances where there are actions we can take to improve the lives of others, to pretend that we know there are people separate from our experience. It's better to err on the side of caution for the welfare of other sentient beings, and to treat the situation practically as though there are people separate from our immediate first-hand experience. But it's also important to detach yourself from the notion that you know without a doubt that there is or is not a world going on separate from your first-hand experience of now. Don't fall on the other side of the horse of naive materialism, because that would be just naive non-materialism. 

[eskwire]

@Samuel Garcia Byron Katie's stuff is good for loosening the tight grip thoughts can have and keeping you open minded. That's it. Her material can turn you into a zen devil or doormat if you don't balance it with other teachings, your own intuition, and your values. 

Edited January 17, 2017 by eskwire

[Leo Gura]

@Emerald Wilkins Doesn't change the fact that "hungry child", in this case, is a concept. Which is not to say you'll never run into hungry children, as if they are a myth. They are real -- when you meet one. If this causes you to be cruel to hungry children -- by say, stopping your donations -- then that's for you to reconcile.

As in West World, just because you realize you're in a game, doesn't mean you have to be an asshole. The game reveals your true colors.

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

In a practical sense, enlightened people are more caring, not less. They are more loving, not less, They are more compassionate not less. Probably because the true nature of reality usually makes you a more loving being. Yes, in my direct experience a hungry child doesnt exist, nor my mom, nor Leo, nor my legs (because I dont see them right now). That doen't mean I'm a legless person and that doesn't mean that there is no hunger in the world.

In my personal opinion, it is good to question this existential observations but we dont have to get hanged up on them. If you are really questioning stuff, just look how really enlightened masters live, behave and think.
 

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Emerald Wilkins Doesn't change the fact that "hungry child", in this case, is a concept. Which is not to say you'll never run into hungry children, as if they are a myth. They are real -- when you meet one. If this causes you to be cruel to hungry children -- by say, stopping your donations -- then that's for you to reconcile.

As in West World, just because you realize you're in a game, doesn't mean you have to be an asshole. The game reveals your true colors.

That's true. It certainly is a concept, and for a seeker of Truth it's very important to realize this and to be able to separate belief from first-hand moment to moment experience. I just think it is a bit dangerous and potentially inaccurate for anyone to conclude that there is factually no existence beyond a person's firsthand experience, and to make a sweeping statement like (paraphrased) 'there are no hungry children out there'. Actually, it's more than likely inaccurate due to the fact that this is a human understanding of the phenomenon of reality. My view is that if it makes sense to a person, then it should automatically be regarded with suspicion. I just think a lot of people won't understand Byron Katie's perspective, and become callous to the suffering of others. 

[eskwire]

31 minutes ago, Emerald Wilkins said:

I just think a lot of people won't understand Byron Katie's perspective, and become callous to the suffering of others. 

You would be a good person to discuss this with. I have had something to get off my chest and I am probably seeing something incorrectly. 

I hate Byron Katie....This is a confession.

I've read 2 of her books and listened to some of her recordings. Her story seems like she's a woman who had an enlightenment experience during a midlife crisis, after living a stepford wife lifestyle. 

I listened to a recording where she "helped a woman see" that her abuse as a child was actually her fault, caused by her meddling in situations with a violent father. 

She seems callous to me.  It's covered up by saccharin additions of "angel" and "sweetheart" at the ends of sentences. 

Her process does make people feel better because it's hard to feel a sense of injustice or righteous indignation after you believe you are the one who was being an asshole.

She said that girl beat herself with her father's hands. 

Zen monks who beat people up for tossing cigarette butts are masters but people who are upset about being abused or molested as children are unenlightened. Like wtf. 

Haha like I said...surely, I'm seeing this wrong but I need to be honest about it to get somewhere with it. 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, eskwire said:

You would be a good person to discuss this with. I have had something to get off my chest and I am probably seeing something incorrectly. 

I hate Byron Katie....This is a confession.

I've read 2 of her books and listened to some of her recordings. Her story seems like she's a woman who had an enlightenment experience during a midlife crisis, after living a stepford wife lifestyle. 

I listened to a recording where she "helped a woman see" that her abuse as a child was actually her fault, caused by her meddling in situations with a violent father. 

She seems callous to me.  It's covered up by saccharin additions of "angel" and "sweetheart" at the ends of sentences. 

Her process does make people feel better because it's hard to feel a sense of injustice or righteous indignation after you believe you are the one who was being an asshole.

She said that girl beat herself with her father's hands. 

Zen monks who beat people up for tossing cigarette butts are masters but people who are upset about being abused or molested as children are unenlightened. Like wtf. 

Haha like I said...surely, I'm seeing this wrong but I need to be honest about it to get somewhere with it. 

I can't speak to Byron Katie's perspective because I have not heard or read very much from her. But I have heard these types of criticisms of her work before. I think there is a fine line (on the intellectual level) between transcending a negative situation through a realization of oneness/ accepting 100% responsibility for your life and blaming yourself for things you did not deserve or cause and engaging in self-flagellation. For someone who speaks to large groups of people, who are likely not enlightened, this doesn't seem like it would be the appropriate advice to give. Many people will mistake the meaning, and will end up making unwise decisions from it. For the average person, they need to hear "You did not cause your abuse. Get out of the situation now. Don't blame yourself. There are options." To say, "you are the cause of your abuse" may be true from the perspective of oneness (as if there is only one, who else could cause or create anything?), but most people have not experienced this... so this just becomes intellectual fodder that fogs instead of clarifies. An enlightened person knows the Truth... but a true master knows what to teach to whom from exactly where that person is.

[eskwire]

@Emerald Wilkins Very true. She may know what she's talking about, but teaching on such a large scale has serious complications. 

People with deep wounds like that are seeking compassion. What caused the wounds was a lack of compassion in the first place. They/we are needs deficient. 

When we are met with, again, no compassion and only tough love from our teachers, it's very painful and perhaps dangerous. "I am seeking compassion. It's not here. I'll seek elsewhere, or I give up ever receiving compassion for these wounds. Maybe I should stop believing in compassion at all." 

I think you hit the nail on the head about her material turning some people callous. 

[WelcometoReality]

@Samuel Garcia It is not easy to teach these subtle truths. Being a spiritual teacher is like being a comedian that tells jokes on a foreign language. The audience just do not get whats funny. How can they? They can't because it's in another language. Maybe a couple of the people in the audience knows the other language a little bit so the can kinda see the point of the joke.

What's even worse for the spiritual teacher is that the audience thinks it knows the point. Thinks they understand what the teacher is saying. But in reality they don't have a clue. They laugh but miss the point completely or they don't laugh at all because they don't get what's funny.