Non linear time

[PepperBlossoms]

Can someone please explain non linear time? (or non linear experience) 

Experience seems to be one thing leads to another leads to another (or morphs to another) (linear) ; but then, I want the antithesis of that....

I can see that, we can't experience going backwards because we won't have the memory of what previously happened since going backwards would take away the memory so we won't remember that the future already happened and we are reversing... does that have anything to do with it?

Is it possible then that we could be going forward and backward in experience at the same time but since going backwards takes away memories and going forwards adds new ones, we only get the forward experience?

Maybe its just bs and there is no such thing as backward???  

I guess the idea of backward and foreward is kinda irrelevant but yet we tell ourselves that we have a past (or imagine so)

[VeganAwake]

Yep,

There's no backwards or forwards.

There is just the immediacy of what seems to be happening.

It's not going anywhere and it didn't start anywhere.

❤ 

[PepperBlossoms]

@VeganAwake Okay so like, the notion of forwards and backwards is irrelevant kinda like up and down is irrelevant cuz you could look at the sky lying on your back and it looks like down is up...

but then - like the calendar, days of the week, hours of the day, the seasons - this order that we have created and a notion of going "forward" during the day with the clock- - it is kinda all made up and there isn't really forward through the calendar but rather just happening

But it isn't going from here to there or starting or stopping.  Its just instantaneously happening over and over...

The universe is staying in the universe and not going anywhere else cuz there is only the universe so no where else for it to go...

But yet - it still feels like there is a past though.... BUTTTT we can't touch the past nor the future - we can only touch whatever we are currently touching.

But yet, as stuff "seems" to be happening, we get memories that seem to be from the past because if there was no memory, the info may not be held long enough to experience -- -so it seems like by the function of how the experience happens, that the linearity is there.

I guess it is like a ruler but there is no direction to point the ruler...

This is the present arrangement - but that experience is constantly felt... 

agh I don't know.

TY

[PepperBlossoms]

I guess like how we could say this is bigger than that, like a blueberry being smaller than an apple - well then, why can't we say that this happened before that?

But then the notion of before and after creates a sense of linear like how the blueberry and apple create a sense of scale.

So maybe it is rather that there is not really a direction that all of existence/time is moving in in the physical sense like going from Europe to Asia but there is a sense of NOW but yet we keep on seeing NOW as having changed.

Ugh 

[VeganAwake]

@PepperBlossoms yeah it's kind of difficult to explain... there is apparent time, like being late for a job or an appointment or missing a train or bus.

Basically the experience of being a separate individual creates a story which feels like an individual is actually learning and advancing or moving through time.

Past memories and experiences and future thoughts and projections shape the reality the illusory individual seems to experience in the immediacy.

These conditioned experiences and projections are like an overlay placed over top of reality making it seem like a very important meaningful something instead of an ordinary empty nothing (the dream story).

❤ 

 

[Bob Seeker]

People on here say that Everything is happening at once.

 And nothing is happening because everything is now.

and everything is nothing.

having direct insight into things such as these may allow you to get a grasp on this.

why do you ask, btw? Are you just curious?

[Carl-Richard]

Precognition.

[PepperBlossoms]

2 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

@PepperBlossoms yeah it's kind of difficult to explain... there is apparent time, like being late for a job or an appointment or missing a train or bus.

Basically the experience of being a separate individual creates a story which feels like an individual is actually learning and advancing or moving through time.

Past memories and experiences and future thoughts and projections shape the reality the illusory individual seems to experience in the immediacy.

These conditioned experiences and projections are like an overlay placed over top of reality making it seem like a very important meaningful something instead of an ordinary empty nothing (the dream story).

❤ 

I like the overlay idea.  Like every moment has an overlay of an imagined past/present/future and that gives it imagined character and context.  Like everything is kinda like rotating and intermixing with itself but there is no direction of moving from here to there (in the absolute sense) - since it all stays within itself (the universe) as itself (the universe).  Kinda like stuff is vibrating in place and trading spots with each other (itself).

2 hours ago, Bob Seeker said:

People on here say that Everything is happening at once.

 And nothing is happening because everything is now.

and everything is nothing.

having direct insight into things such as these may allow you to get a grasp on this.

why do you ask, btw? Are you just curious?

I think I need those direct insights too to fully get it

ugh yeah I was just wanting to fill the gaps and didn't fully grasp the concept yet but have heard people talk about it but also it just popped into my head and for whatever reason, I was kinda going over some of the ideas I had and that one could use some more work

like when you say everything IS nothing, it is like two opposites.  So past/present/future in a linear way made me want to explore some non-linear way.  Even saying "everything is nothing" doesn't fully make sense yet other than the idea of oneness and not being "a thing" that could be considered separate from another "thing" since there is no where to make the dividing line absolutely and the idea that we can't tell if stuff is real or imaginary and it doesn't really make a difference either way.  So I guess - it exists and doesn't exists, it is all and it is not anything (because there is nothing absolutely separate to compare to)

oh so everything is now - - and the antithesis of that is everything is never (never as opposite of now) - or - - nothing is now (nothing as opposite of everything); or nothing is never

agh maybe it doesn't matter. I just was thinking of time as part of a physical phenomenon's change but we could also say, nothing is changing, no time is passing (on absolute sense).  I guess I need to stop talking and just wait.  They still feel more like word games I guess.

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Precognition.

Interesting response.  Makes me think of how we get ideas in our head and don't really know where they came from - unless the idea we are having for "the future" already existed/happened in "the future"- - but then, is there an infinite amount of things that already existed/happened and possibilities for what path we are to experience?

Edited February 17, 2022 by PepperBlossoms

[Breakingthewall]

time is a mental idea, the same as the past and the future. they do not exist except in the mind, they are ego. there is only the current present.  time is an idea that anticipates the change, a very sophisticated survival tool that makes the human what it is. time plus preference form the ego

[PepperBlossoms]

@Carl-Richard If we assume that years/dates are a real thing, then how can say Jan 3, 1991 3:00 pm Eastern Time exist at the same moment as Dec 21, 3046, 12:00 am, Eastern Time?

How does that work?  Is that basically 4D where we only see the present moment in 3D and if you add another dimension, it can extend in every direction and hence you could draw an imaginary straight line from  Jan 3, 1991 3:00 pm Eastern Time to Dec 21, 3046, 12:00 am, Eastern Time but also draw another straight line from May 500 2:00 am Eastern Time to May 50,000,000 2:00 am Eastern Time and it could be that the two lines have different events happening but yet both are possible and may or have happened and you could have an infinite amount of "lines" drawn like this with the center of the lines being the NOW moment that we are currently experiencing???

I guess I am just trying to also tie this to the idea that I have heard some people say where you could have every possible thing happening and each second has a divergent of every possibility as a reality.  If the lines are already drawn, then is there the idea of fate or are we actually choosing what happens (free will) or maybe there is an infinite amount of fates already available to choose from and we pick one (free will)....

This video which I found after I wrote this says something similar.

 

19 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

time is a mental idea, the same as the past and the future. they do not exist except in the mind, they are ego. there is only the current present.  time is an idea that anticipates the change, a very sophisticated survival tool that makes the human what it is. time plus preference form the ego

I guess there are two forms of thought - one that past/future only exist in the mind and one that past/future exist but as say another dimension.

I guess with the idea that everything already exists and nothing is changing since it already exists - that is contradictory because one is still having to go through frames and one slice of moment at a "time".

With the idea that past and future are just in the mind - I guess the hard part is - how can they be in the mind but not exist?

[PepperBlossoms]

I guess either way - we are having to imagine that another space-time dimension exists or imagine that past-future exists.

[PepperBlossoms]

If there was no beginning and everything always existed, then how does that work?  

So if everything always existed, then has past/present/future always existed or is it just that the substance that makes up everything has always existed and keeps on changing?

But how does something exist forever?  It is so hard to imagine forever and infinity.

[Username]

Time doesn't float, reality jumps from one frame to another. It's like shaking a kaleidoscope but there isn't anything between. You can look closer, this way time will slow down.

[Nahm]

@PepperBlossoms

In a dream it could seem like there is time, and that it’s passing, and therein that there is a beginning and an end, and that time has passed, and now the end has come, and you’re dying. Then, it’s reveled there wasn’t time or death, just the unwillingness to meditate as to no longer believe the thoughts, ‘time’, and ‘death’, and ‘dream’. The relief in any case is love, bliss. The resistance in any case was conjecture, which was the dream. Because the conjecture was the dream, it was only the thoughts which were believed. 

Then, as The Enlightened One, you’d surely dream again, only, this time you’d know it was a dream because you’d surely meditate vs believing the thoughts. Even in spite of infinite not knowing finite, surely, you’d listen to The Enlightened One. There would be absolutely no reason not to ‘listen to yourself’. Sans, again, believing the thoughts, seemingly derived of, conjecture. 

“Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’

When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them.”

Nonetheless, you could ignore The Enlightened One and bear the suffering while doing so. The Enlightened One, of course is not a person, but is you. ?

The conjecture would have of course precisely been in regard to, The Enlightened One. 

But it is you which believed the thoughts. 

 

 

“Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ 

When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them.”

[Nadosa]

31 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@PepperBlossoms

In a dream it could seem like there is time, and that it’s passing, and therein that there is a beginning and an end, and that time has passed, and now the end has come, and you’re dying. Then, it’s reveled there wasn’t time or death, just the unwillingness to meditate as to no longer believe the thoughts, ‘time’, and ‘death’, and ‘dream’. The relief in any case is love, bliss. The resistance in any case was conjecture, which was the dream. Because the conjecture was the dream, it was only the thoughts which were believed. 

Then, as The Enlightened One, you’d surely dream again, only, this time you’d know it was a dream because you’d surely meditate vs believing the thoughts. Even in spite of infinite not knowing finite, surely, you’d listen to The Enlightened One. There would be absolutely no reason not to ‘listen to yourself’. Sans, again, believing the thoughts, seemingly derived of, conjecture. 

“Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’

When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them.”

Nonetheless, you could ignore The Enlightened One and bear the suffering while doing so. The Enlightened One, of course is not a person, but is you. ?

The conjecture would have of course precisely been in regard to, The Enlightened One. 

But it is you which believed the thoughts. 

 

 

“Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ 

When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them.”

Doesn't quite match with the topic here, but I have another question.

For me it is the thought of a separate self that feels quite unsettling, even confusing. Like who is it that chooses, that wills, that is here, that lets go, that meditates, that wants to feel good, that was yesterday, that is tomorrow. I dont see that there was someone yesterday or even anyone, but I only see it when a certain pattern of thoughts that are about my person or identity arise - then there is this unsettling fear of not knowing who I am and who wants to enjoy life and feel good etc, because isnt this what Life is a about? But what if the main character just doenst exist? Even tho it doesnt, it stills fears that it doesnt exist, which doesnt make sense. Ultimately I feel like a completely identity-less dude. Not in a depersonalized way. 

And then I want to just sit still and my mind is instantly turning it into "ah alright, you meditate because you want to feel better, but there is no one to whom feeling better refers." Which leads to extreme feelings of Powerlessness and not having Control over anything.

 

I feel quite powerless, because WHO chooses to feel better? To meditate? Why should one meditate if there is no one to meditate? But how are those thoughts dealt with then? Like you cant deal with them, but mind wants to frame it as if "I want to get out of and cure smth", which ultimately feels like this feeling better just isn't in my hands, I mean in the hands of a separate self. 

Basically following identity issue is present: confusing patterns of about a separate identity --> i feel fear --> then mind starts to wonder about how I can overcome the separate self thoughts --> feels off, as if there is no one that can "get over them" --> Feeling of Powerlessness

Edited February 17, 2022 by Nadosa

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Nadosa said:

But how are those thoughts dealt with then?

Meditatively, or expressively using the scale.    

Just pop ‘people’ in where ‘thoughts’ is, and it’s immediately clearer.  If it resonates… inclusivity rather than exclusivity. What works well for the mind works well for the planet. 

“For me it is the thought of a separate self”

When you see it, bricks will be shat. Much relief will ensue. Best be lighthearted and not all clench-like, as humor is sometimes sudden. 

 

“Get over them”  

Them implies not me. 

Therein is ‘the elusive separate self’. The ‘me’ which ‘they or them’ are not. The ‘separate’ self. 

Discordant thoughts aren’t powerful, but are thoughts. It’s you that is powerful. That is why there is discord, with the thought. 

[PepperBlossoms]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:Then, it’s reveled there wasn’t time or death, just the unwillingness to meditate as to no longer believe the thoughts, ‘time’, and ‘death’, and ‘dream’. The relief in any case is love, bliss. The resistance in any case was conjecture, which was the dream. Because the conjecture was the dream, it was only the thoughts which were believed. 

 

Then, as The Enlightened One, you’d surely dream again, only, this time you’d know it was a dream because you’d surely meditate vs believing the thoughts. Even in spite of infinite not knowing finite, surely, you’d listen to The Enlightened One. There would be absolutely no reason not to ‘listen to yourself’. Sans, again, believing the thoughts, seemingly derived of, conjecture. 

The conjecture would have of course precisely been in regard to, The Enlightened One. 

But it is you which believed the thoughts. 

Beautiful response.  I can see that we may have to put great effort to stop believing the thoughts such as with meditation, as thoughts are like conjecture and not the full picture, the Enlightened One. Time/past/death are thoughts, ideas.  But if we have no thoughts, it is like there is nothing to experience other than nothingness so I can see that it can be nice to experience both listening and not listening to thoughts.  So basically any structure of reality that we come up with is a thought and is not necessarily it, including time, start, end.

1 hour ago, Nadosa said:

For me it is the thought of a separate self that feels quite unsettling, even confusing. 

I am no expert but I decided to give some suggestions too.  You could look at it as there is only one universal self and that within that universal self, you could look at it that there are a bunch of selves and you, as a human, are just one of them

1 hour ago, Nadosa said:

Like who is it that chooses, that wills, that is here, that lets go, that meditates, that wants to feel good, that was yesterday, that is tomorrow.

You are the one that does those things.

1 hour ago, Nadosa said:

I dont see that there was someone yesterday or even anyone, but I only see it when a certain pattern of thoughts that are about my person or identity arise - then there is this unsettling fear of not knowing who I am and who wants to enjoy life and feel good etc, because isnt this what Life is a about? But what if the main character just doenst exist? Even tho it doesnt, it stills fears that it doesnt exist, which doesnt make sense. Ultimately I feel like a completely identity-less dude. Not in a depersonalized way. 

You could create some thoughts to create your own identity (and sense of self) as identity is basically made and exists by thoughts.  We don't really know if we exist or not but we can't prove it one way or the other and it kinda doesn't matter - even if this universe is imaginary, we imagine and feel like we are here.

1 hour ago, Nadosa said:

And then I want to just sit still and my mind is instantly turning it into "ah alright, you meditate because you want to feel better, but there is no one to whom feeling better refers." Which leads to extreme feelings of Powerlessness and not having Control over anything.

The feeling better refers to you.  You have power and control.  Use your hand and pick something up or wave your hand back and forth - you can do that.  You can tell yourself that you will shut one eye and you can get your eye to shut.  You were able to get on the computer and type a message using sentences.

1 hour ago, Nadosa said:

I feel quite powerless, because WHO chooses to feel better? To meditate? Why should one meditate if there is no one to meditate? But how are those thoughts dealt with then? Like you cant deal with them, but mind wants to frame it as if "I want to get out of and cure smth", which ultimately feels like this feeling better just isn't in my hands, I mean in the hands of a separate self. 

You choose to feel better and meditate.  There is you to meditate.  We have thoughts that think about thoughts and use that to come up with more thoughts and we listen to it and it is like watching tv where we forget we are watching tv and we start believing what we are seeing and start crying when the actor is crying or when our thoughts are sad.  We start believing every thought we have as that is the main show on and we are giving it our attention.  We think a sad thought and then we decide to cry and then our crying reinforces the idea we should be sad and maybe we stop believing and then stop crying.  We don't have to believe the thoughts.  We can change our thoughts/activities if we want to do that and if we think that that is to cure something or feel better.  

1 hour ago, Nadosa said:

Basically following identity issue is present: confusing patterns of about a separate identity --> i feel fear --> then mind starts to wonder about how I can overcome the separate self thoughts --> feels off, as if there is no one that can "get over them" --> Feeling of Powerlessness

If it is too confusing, you could have the duality of entire Self and individual selves in various bodies.  Ask why you are feeling fear - what about trying to seek calmness and accept things for how they are as they are and try to make peace.  Maybe try to quiet the thoughts and peace will arise.  Maybe try other ways to think about separate self.  Sometimes we can't really solve something and we just have to be okay with it.  We have power and also don't have power.  Ah well I hope things get better for you!

[Nahm]

6 minutes ago, PepperBlossoms said:

Beautiful response.  I can see that we may have to put great effort to stop believing the thoughts such as with meditation, as thoughts are like conjecture and not the full picture, the Enlightened One. Time/past/death are thoughts, ideas.  But if we have no thoughts, it is like there is nothing to experience other than nothingness so I can see that it can be nice to experience both listening and not listening to thoughts.  So basically any structure of reality that we come up with is a thought and is not necessarily it, including time, start, end.

??   Meditation addresses the ego in a way, but is not for the ego. There is no effort involved. Like life, meditation is not a means to an end. 

 

 

 

[VeganAwake]

@Nadosa That sounds like some very honest inquiry.

It can really seem and feel like quite the mind f***.

Sometimes it will just unfold at its own pace. 

❤