How the Heck Do you Talk to Religious People?

[PepperBlossoms]

How do you stay friends with them or talk to them?

Do you suppress yourself or are you unrestricted and say, fuck it?

I feel like, yes it would be cool to learn more about why they are religious and the thought process - but other than that - how does one explore various concepts with them when a religious person is basically not supposed to do that?!??? 

The breath of topics just seems to be not allowed because I will go to an area that they "do not want to talk about".

No I can't talk about this or this or this because it is all counter-culture and the religion doesn't want rebels, they want conformists, and so they don't want to rebel either necessarily...

MEH

I feel like I will just piss them off even if I am just talking out loud.

When a religious person says they like me, I am like - WHYYYY - how am I supposed to be myself around you?  I feel so restricted.

I don't want to fight, I just want to explore - but they don't want to explore. 

Yeah sure, there are the "safe" topics like the weather but, that can get boring after awhile.

[SgtPepper]

First recognize there's no religious people, there are only human beings, and then boom. Talk to the human being in front of you.

[PepperBlossoms]

@SgtPepper  That's an interesting idea!  But what about if I start talking about stuff and then start criticizing a religion that they just so happen to be in????  Then I could be offending them and creating tension.... then what?!?!???

[Preety_India]

What is it about them that triggers you? 

[SgtPepper]

you can communicate your ideas and feelings, what could help is becoming conscious of how to communicate it.

If you are genuinely wanting to know why someone believes what they believe, there is a way to ask without criticism. 

Think about something you like or believe in, but someone didn't understand why you liked it, how would you prefer to be spoken to about it?

Sometimes though, it is best to not talk about it. I had a similar situation with a muslim friend in graduate school and he got really annoyed when I started suggesting that Moses smoked DMT and that the Virgin Mary was likely not a virgin. I was looking for a philosophical discussion on religion and he was looking to not have his beliefs challenged. It pretty much ended the relationship. 

Probably best to focus on hobbies unrelated to religion or politics if the person is not open to discussing their beliefs.

Edited February 15, 2022 by SgtPepper

[PepperBlossoms]

@Preety_India I think I am triggering myself by imagining things that aren't really there like the idea that I can't talk about xyz with them or that they will react like abc when I really don't know.  Or imagining that it is even a problem in the first place when really I could just accept it and be done with it.  I could also accept that I will just never fully understand them anyway as well as everything else.

@SgtPepperAgreed on trying to be more conscious of how and why we communicate. 

[Loba]

I am interested in religion, so I ask questions about their religion, and listen.

[QandC]

When I lived in Korea I got approached by two guys who were very into their religion, or "fake christianity" as they would call it in Korea. Basically they were extremely friendly and wanted to talk to me about God and their view on life, creation etc. So I was just open-minded and listened to everything they had to say while keeping a sceptical eye. We started to hang out some times and they were some of the nicest people I ever met. Almost a bit too nice. They asked me to come join their church, or just check it out. I knew what they wanted to do, they basically wanted to lure me into their church. I went to their church and listened to their whole theory while cringing a bit inside. Still I asked them what they thought about other religions? They just said they respect other religions but this is what They believe in. 

More and more we started to hang out but they were always peaking for me to join their church even though I didn't want to. I guess they felt that they wanted to kind of save me and that they did something good for themselves and for me. 

Either way, talking to religious people is really of no use if you wanna convince them of anything. My ex-gf. was a hardcore catholic and I was stupid enough trying to point out the flaws of her religion, and I later realized it was of no use. If something is so deeply enrooted into your childhood/identity it's there to stay.  Unless it starts to cause more suffering and you perhaps enter your own spiritual journey to strip away of the religion that's dragging you down. Imagine your gf. having to go and beg for forgiveness after every time you've had sex, frustrating to say the least. 

Try convincing another person that your language is more valuable/better than theirs, it's not gonna happen. Also I've noticed with religious people that God is above everything, and his judgement is the ultimate thing. According to Durkheim's research on suicide, people of stricter religions like catholicism and judaism are less prone to killing themselves in times of misery than for example protestants. Simply because they are more afraid of not following the way of God than their own suffering, while protestants have more of a "mental freedom/free will" and can decide more for themselves. So that should tell you something about the power it holds over a person's mind. 

So yeah, a religious person usually don't want to explore. But think about it, does a hard-core atheist wanna explore spirituality and solipsism? Probably not lol. Perhaps even less than a religious person. 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by QandC

[Carl-Richard]

Depends on which type of religious person it is. Many famous psychologists have divided religiosity into two types:

Gordon Allport:

Intrinsic and extrinsic religion: religion as an end to itself vs. as a means to an end.

Abraham Maslow:

Religion based on deficit needs (safety, belonging, esteem) vs growth needs (self-actualization, self-transcendence).

Erich Fromm:

Authoritarian vs. humanistic religion: submission, duty, sorrow, guilt, obedience, worship vs. self-unfoldment, happiness, love, belief in oneself, the empowered human, the mystical experience.

[Dryas]

I restrict myself. I don’t count that as suppressing. I know it’s best to stay quite because not doing so will not do me and others any good.

[John Paul]

@PepperBlossoms

don't waste time trying to help people with their mindsets. changing people is a waste of your life. religious people don't know this cause they're stupid. don't suppress yourself it's a waste of life. unless the value they add to your life is great or you want something out of them, then pretend you are interested in order to get what you want from them. if they are like family to you then be cool with them but don't give any energy to religious conversations, try to keep avoiding the topic and don't make it obvious, OR the most genuine action would be to set a boundary "i'm not interested in your religious beliefs, I'm interested in you. if you aren't willing to not push your religion on me i need space/find new friends etc."

[hyruga]

You just talk. We are all the same souls having a human experiences. Just that different of us have different beliefs about God.

Some of us think of God as:

- God is in everything (pantheism) 
 

   All things are one (monism)
 

   Man is God.

 

- Krishna and avatars.

- Christ.

- and thousands more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by hyruga

[EternalForest]

@PepperBlossoms Acknowledge the fact they probably feel the same way about your beliefs and agree to disagree. You can debate them if you want but don't attack their beliefs. That will actually make them less likely to drop their dogmas. You can get along with people without agreeing with them politically or spiritually. I disagree with a lot of my friends on some pretty fundamental things but that doesn't stop us from doing the things that we do click on.

[Alex_R]

About what they feel and interpret as God, its always interesting to talk about God and compare points of views

Check this:

-John 14:20

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

 

-Exodus 3:14

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

 

-John 17:11 

"And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one."

Edited February 17, 2022 by Alex_R

[Adamq8]

5 minutes ago, Alex_R said:

About what they feel and interpret as God, its always interesting to talk about God and compare points of views

Check this:

-John 14:20

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

So you think that this somehow confirms panentheism?

If so, you are misled.

Christianity is and has always been a monotheistic religion, one God but three persons.

 

Father - Son - Holy spirit.

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Matthew 28 : 19-18.

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

 

[DocWatts]

If by religious people you're referring to religion as it's practiced at SD-Blue, then I wouldn't hold out much hope at a mutual understanding of perspectives on any kind of deep level.

This is because the epistemic framework that you embody and probably take for granted only works because you've undergone a series of internal transformations to enact that framework.

Just accept that they have a certain way of viewing the world which is inextricably linked to what makes life meaningful for them, and try to recognize that this is true for you as well.

Note that none of this is meant pejoratively towards religious folks, it's also the reason why you can't just drop a deconstruction of the materialist framework in to the lap of a scientific materialist and expect it to bear fruit. At least that's going to be the case if there's not already some prior groundwork in place, which would allow that individual to critically engage with their worldview.

And I'm not exempting myself from this, as I'm in exactly the same boat when I try and fail to grok what it means to have a non-dual mystical experience 

Edited February 17, 2022 by DocWatts

[PepperBlossoms]

On 15.2.2022 at 11:22 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Depends on which type of religious person it is. Many famous psychologists have divided religiosity into two types:

Gordon Allport:

Intrinsic and extrinsic religion: religion as an end to itself vs. as a means to an end.

Abraham Maslow:

Religion based on deficit needs (safety, belonging, esteem) vs growth needs (self-actualization, self-transcendence).

Erich Fromm:

Authoritarian vs. humanistic religion: submission, duty, sorrow, guilt, obedience, worship vs. self-unfoldment, happiness, love, belief in oneself, the empowered human, the mystical experience.

The funny part about religion meeting deficit needs like safety/esteem is that it also doesn't meet esteem needs because of the guilt part - like it is "supposed" to make you feel good but yet ends up making you feel bad 

I guess I can see that I would use it for both of the types you are referring to.

2 hours ago, DocWatts said:

And I'm not exempting myself from this, as I'm in exactly the same boat when I try and fail to grok what it means to have a non-dual mystical experience 

I guess it is weird to describe.  It is like - oh I am part of everything and this is mysterious but then it is like, I forget and think I am a human.

[PepperBlossoms]

On 2/15/2022 at 3:20 PM, QandC said:

Basically they were extremely friendly and wanted to talk to me about God and their view on life, creation etc. they basically wanted to lure me into their church. 

Either way, talking to religious people is really of no use if you wanna convince them of anything. My ex-gf. was a hardcore catholic and I was stupid enough trying to point out the flaws of her religion, and I later realized it was of no use. If something is so deeply enrooted into your childhood/identity it's there to stay.  Unless it starts to cause more suffering and you perhaps enter your own spiritual journey to strip away of the religion that's dragging you down. Imagine your gf. having to go and beg for forgiveness after every time you've had sex, frustrating to say the least. 

 

Imagine - if no one ever had the desire to convince/convert/lure someone to try to adapt their ideas, organized religion WOULDN'T EXIST!! For it to survive, people have to be constantly trying to get/forcing others to join. (Same goes with science/history/language)

It is weird at how we sometimes have this desire to convince others to agree with us or try what we are trying.  We could think that it was helpful for us and that we are wanting to help others too and would get joy out of seeing them benefitted and feeling grateful for us.  It could be that we think we see something that is wrong and that it would be so much better if we just commented on it and tried to change it by how we see fit.

I used to have the same thing where I was like - Oh I can't have sex before marriage and would turn it into a discussion quite a bit but I completely left Catholicism and no longer worry about that thankfully.

She thinks that she is doing what is right by not allowing herself to consider anything new because the religion wants faithful followers and she wants to maintain that but isn't patient enough to even allow 5 minutes of trying out a new perspective.  I have been like that with stuff.

8 hours ago, EternalForest said:

You can debate them if you want but don't attack their beliefs. That will actually make them less likely to drop their dogmas.

I used to try to convince or thoroughly question my friends/family's religion and have noticed that it doesn't do anything and they are too far deep into it.  Part of me would be like - I just need to get the logic to make sense in an easy enough way and there is no way they will be able to keep thinking what they do.  As long as they aren't going to jail me for disagreeing or whatever, they can think what they want.  I see though that parents raise their kids to be religious who then can raise their kids to be religious and the cycle repeats and now we have banned abortion and gays that could get killed in some places.

[PepperBlossoms]

I guess there is a part of me that just still has quite a hate for Biblical religion that I want to shout to everyone all the logical fallacies it has but also it is like, well am I going to look like an arrogant fool and it doesn't even matter in the universal notion of things and am I just as bad as a religion person that is trying to convert you if I do that...

I guess when your friends tell you - I don't want to talk about it - for some reason, I get mad and don't want to be around them anymore - which is dumb but IDK.

[PepperBlossoms]

I guess all the people that tried to convince me to join their religion and get me on their medication and read their bibles - I am mad at them for being too unwilling to see my perspective but trying to make me see and join theirs.