A rant against the whole rating culture of women

[Nightwise]

From the very beginning when I started doing pickup in 2013 when I was still a clueless and awkward chode (for the record, I stopped that same year due to frustration and never returned to pick-up since then), I never really resonated with this idea that I needed to progress my way towards getting these "9's and 10's". From the very beginning that seemed rather nonsense to me. I didn't see why girls whom society at large would judge them as having a 'more attractive appearance' would have truly more inherent worth and value than other girls.

And now, almost 9 years later, I still don't see it that way. I see pretty much every pick-up teacher that I otherwise respect talk about this whole idea of 'getting to date the 9's and 10's', and I believe Leo too has mentioned something about working your way up to these 'higher-rated girls'.

It honestly really grinds my gears. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think 9's and 10's are supposed to be like in the eyes of most men, are these arrogant. pompous women who put on a lot of make-up, make sure they stay in good physical shape and perhaps get things like breast implants and get cosmetic surgery, and they walk around with an air like they're better than everyone else.

I think the primary reason guys would judge women like that as a '10' or '9' is because of their 'can't get me'-attitude. They're playing hard-to-get and acting like they're above it all. Guys see that as a greater challenge and attribute more value to them because of that. And also of course because these women spend a lot of time and attention making sure their physical appearance stays in check.

But as for me, I don't want an arrogant, haughty girl. I would (no joke) honestly get irritated if such a girl were to approach me with such an air as if she's already entitled to having me or even acting like she's above me. I would quickly flip the script and just ask her: "Why should I be interested in you? Do you think you're entitled of getting everything you want from men just because you wear a lot of make-up, put on sexy clothes and act all haughty and above-it-all? What do you have as far as character and substance is concerned? Why would you be a good and trustworthy partner that I would want to date? I want submissive and humble women and I only see arrogance in you so please get away"

And this is not some kind of pick-up technique to act high-value and entitled myself. I honestly mean what I've just written there. I couldn't give two shits about this whole ego-game that people are playing where they put certain women with certain qualifications and manners of behaviour on a pedestal, as if they're some special goddess or something.

I personally look for the goddess in her character. Is she feminine? Is she humble? Is she receptive? Is she submissive? Is she willing to give all of herself to me... THAT'S the kind of woman I would want to date and be with.

Do I then not care for physical appearance at all? I do; I'm still a guy. But the kind of physical appearance that I'm attracted to isn't necessarily layers upon layers of paint on her face. In fact, I can find that quite a turnoff sometimes because I don't get to experience her in her raw and pure form, which I can also find really attractive in some women. Not all women per se, but for some reason with some women I just find them genuinly more attractive when they're not wearing any make-up whatsoever. I just love to see them who they are in all of their purity and simplicity. There is something really attractive to me in seeing a woman in her most raw and unpolished form.

I also care to some degree about her feminine curves. This is the only thing I notice that my biology can have a strong initial preference or indifference towards. I  prefer her to have big breasts, and I care even more for her having wide hips and a nice, firm, big butt. I don't mind (but not prefer per se) her being overweight (unless it's really severe), as long as she's got the curves in the right places. I also don't mind if she's a little bit older (up unto 60 years old I would say, but this depends very much from woman to woman). Very skinny girls I don't prefer so much, especially if she's got slim and narrow hips and buttocks. I'm the kind of guy who prefers some proper meat on the bones.

If she's got those things which I mentioned above, that's nice and all, but I do notice that's just my initial biological kneejerk reaction. I'm very much willing to look past a lack of those physical traits if the girl I'm meeting is very humble, submissive and compassionate, or at least willing to open up and work on becoming more like that. Again, ultimately I care more about her character than her appearance or even my kneejerk biological attraction (unless I'm in a state where I just want get attuned with my primal, raw sexual instincts and go with that, which I suppose can be fun sometimes). Otherwise, I really seek for a feminine, humble and submissive woman. Especially if I were to seek for a long-time partner (which I don't right now, to be fair).

 

The takeaway of this: Guys, please STOP putting certain women that act all arrogant and haughty because of their appearance on a pedestal! Stop playing these fucking ego games! Look in women for something that's truly valuable: Her character and her innocence. If you want to at times let your raw sexual instincts lead you, that's fine, but even then be aware that you don't let your conditioning of what you think an attractive girl is supposed to look like color your perception. Really learn to attune to what YOU find attractive in a woman; Both biologically and on an emotional/spiritual level.

And see if you can connect to other women from a place of compassion and true, unconditional love. See if you can love her not for her body, but for her feminine radiance. If her feminine radiance isn't as much present, then look for the woman in her that would have that feminine radiance. As the saying goes: "If you look at people as they are, they will stay as they are. If you look at people for what they can be, they will become the best they can be"; they will change into that best version of themselves that you already see within them. Seeing it in them will bring it out. Thus, seeing the divine goddess in her will bring out the divine goddess, even if beforehand she was quite the opposite of that.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Nightwise

[Lyubov]

I don't rank women with numbers either or talk like there is some objective scale. It's kinda ridiculous and the guys that are unconscious enough to do it are unwittingly putting themselves on a scale as well with an end goal they'll never reach. It does tremendous subconscious harm. Making life for themselves and getting what they want way harder as well but some people unknowingly like to make things hard for themselves cause they got nothing better to do. It's fine to evaluate looks according to your own preferences and state those preferences though. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Lyubov

[NoSelfSelf]

If your goal is to date 9s and 10s then better not do it imo... missing the point of pick up, pick up to me is journey to self mastery poking your inner demons and getting rid of them...everything else is bonus

Doing it for validation like :i got 10 look at me how special i am is nonsense and stop doing something you wanted to do just for someone saying that you should get 9s and 10s is also pointless you do it for your own benefits you got affected by seeking for approval i know how it is but living like that is hell....

Pick up should help you with what i see in your post looking for approval,caring for others opinions more than yours and getting swayed from your path easily(validations) having strong sense of yourself that is not influenced by others thats what pick up is for,the core of it! Not women...

[Preety_India]

I don't like women being rated on a numerical scale. I never rated men this way. Feels very "beneath."

 

[Javfly33]

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 I didn't see why girls whom society at large would judge them as having a 'more attractive appearance' would have truly more inherent worth and value than other girls.

Not inherent worth. They have more worth "relatively" in the world of dating and attraction towards men. In the same sense a pro PC gamer has more worth than a 60 year old granny in counter strike. 

 

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 "Why should I be interested in you? Do you think you're entitled of getting everything you want from men just because you wear a lot of make-up, put on sexy clothes and act all haughty and above-it-all? What do you have as far as character and substance is concerned? Why would you be a good and trustworthy partner that I would want to date? I want submissive and humble women and I only see arrogance in you so please get away"

There are some girls that can be total douchebags, of course. But most of 9s and 10s show that behavior as a test to for selection. The fact that you get emotional triggered from her games already tells her that you are needy and not enough grounded for her. Like I said, it's a "preconfigured" attitude they usually have because they get approached so much and are desired by so many. 

 

2 hours ago, Nightwise said:

 

I personally look for the goddess in her character. Is she feminine? Is she humble? Is she receptive? Is she submissive? Is she willing to give all of herself to me... THAT'S the kind of woman I would want to date and be with.

Not all women per se, but for some reason with some women I just find them genuinly more attractive when they're not wearing any make-up whatsoever. I just love to see them who they are in all of their purity and simplicity. There is something really attractive to me in seeing a woman in her most raw and unpolished form.

If she's got those things which I mentioned above, that's nice and all, but I do notice that's just my initial biological kneejerk reaction. I'm very much willing to look past a lack of those physical traits if the girl I'm meeting is very humble, submissive and compassionate, or at least willing to open up and work on becoming more like that.

But that's still rating them. See, you do it like everybody else.

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It honestly really grinds my gears. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think 9's and 10's are supposed to be like in the eyes of most men, are these arrogant. pompous women who put on a lot of make-up, make sure they stay in good physical shape and perhaps get things like breast implants and get cosmetic surgery, and they walk around with an air like they're better than everyone else.

The takeaway of this: Guys, please STOP putting certain women that act all arrogant and haughty because of their appearance on a pedestal! 

There are 9s and 10s that are not arrogant , haughty or go into surgery.

Last 9 I met was into non-duality, very compassionate/intuitive, was a healthy girl (do daily exercise) and was a nurse. Careful with the stereotypical beliefs.

She's going to be very selective in regards to sex, however. It doesn't matter. The Sex game is a selfish and biased game.

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And see if you can connect to other women from a place of compassion and true, unconditional love. See if you can love her not for her body, but for her feminine radiance.

That doesn't have anything to do with attraction and dating girls. You can have all the compassion and love in the world but that won't get you girls. Although having that in top of having game would make you more interesting high quality man for some girls definitely. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Javfly33

[Roy]

I think it's pretty benign. Everyone does it. I mean yeah it's not the greatest thing, but it's just a fun little social game people play.

I think you're more angry at the people that you can tell take it way too seriously and use it as a way to objectify women.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Nightwise said:

I would quickly flip the script and just ask her: "Why should I be interested in you? Do you think you're entitled of getting everything you want from men just because you wear a lot of make-up, put on sexy clothes and act all haughty and above-it-all? What do you have as far as character and substance is concerned? Why would you be a good and trustworthy partner that I would want to date? I want submissive and humble women and I only see arrogance in you so please get away"

Congrats! You just re-invented Mystery Method.

BTW, you should notice that you just stereotyped and insulted all the most attractive women as being arrogant, shallow, fake, and untrustworthy.

How wise of you.

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Roy said:

Everyone does it.

not everyone, for the record i also don't rate women on a numerical scale and find it dumb. i'm such a treasure give me props.

also most people i know don't really do it, at least i haven't heard it often.

some people also stare at beautiful women and i try not to do that too. i have a friend sometimes he's like "look over there whoa, omg omg" but i won't even look

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Something Funny said:

But seriously, what is the point of grading girl's looks besides boosting your ego (I've slept with a 10 look how cool I am and how good my game is)?

You just see a girl and either find her attractive or not and approach her based on that. Why do you feel the need to put a number on her? 

Personally I don't like the whole number system. I mostly use it because other guys use it, in order to communicate with them.

There are actually practical reasons to use a number system. It's not done for ego. Hot girls require adjustments to ones game. A hot girl can be teased much harder than an average girl who is insecure about her looks. I can call a 10 fat. I cannot call a normal girl fat, she would lose her shit. Hot girls also tend to have a lot more sexual experience so this needs to be taken into account. These are stereotypes but there is some truth in them and making such distinctions helps guys get laid, which is why these distinctions are made by guys.

I am not endorsing this system. I am just explaining why guys use it.

I can often predict whether a girl is a stripper, model, go-go dancer, instagram model, or cocktail waitress just by looking at her body and face.

Also for example if my wing goes to a club and tells me: "This place mostly has 6s and below" I roughly know what he means and then I know it's not worthwhile for me to go to that club. It's gonna be a waste of my time. On the other hand if a wing tells me, "Bro, this place is full of 9s!" I have a reason to go. I could have reached these conclusions myself, but having a reliable wing saves me time. So it becomes a communication tool among guys. It's not totally accurate but it gives guys a general sense of things.

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Also, isn't attractiveness and beauty subjective?

Yeah, a 10 is only a 10 in the eyes of the guy doing the assessment. Obviously it's subjective and guys have a wide range of types.

I have one wing who loves THICK girls with huge asses. I don't find that attractive at all personally.

I have another wing who will only sleep with small, anorexic Asian girls who are not FOB. He thinks that 95% of girls are too fat, even when they aren't. I personally think he's crazy because he passes on a ton of otherwise stunning girls. But that's what he likes. He will only approach skinny Asians. I don't find girls that skinny to be 10s, but that is his 10.

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What is the point of saying that someone is a "10" when everyone has a different version of what "10" is?

But despite those subjective disagreements, there is wide agreement among people as to what counts as a hot girl. That is why strippers and models get paid for their bodies very consistently. Everyone recognizes a beautiful face or body instantly. Girls recognize it too. Don't pretend like you don't know which of your girlfriends are bombshells. And don't pretend like you don't recognize male-model looking dudes. Our brains are wired to recognize beauty, even if there are subjective quirks in taste.

If I show a photo of a 10 to a group of guys, they will unanimously say, "God damn! You slept with her??? No way!" Plenty of guys will even struggle to believe that is possible. It can shatter a guy's reality to know such things are possible.

From a guy's subjective POV there is a huge difference between having sex with a 6 vs a 10. Many guys might simply be too intimidated to fuck a 10 even if she is begging him for it. Even approaching a 10 is hard for most guys.

You might say this is all shallow and none of this matters. Yeah, for a girl none of this matters. But for a guy it matters very much.

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Yes, if you are conscious enough you can probably teach yourself to see beauty everywhere. But still there is that initial reaction of "oh, that view is gorgeous" or "damn what a depressing looking place".

Do you have any idea how does it work?

Beauty is literally infinite, but our minds are biased by survival towards somethings and away from others. You are never going to get a full and precise explication of what causes you to feel beauty. You can't turn beauty into an algorithm.

[gettoefl]

to see with new eyes let be you to full be your beautiful

[puporing]

I don't think it's all that different whether one prioritizes physical attractiveness or 'character attractiveness'... I mean it is all a kind of selection process that is supposed to maximize your own survival needs. People generally don't date to maximize the other person's survival needs (it's more rare and takes two highly conscious people). If you like someone for who they are (physical or nonphysical) there's nothing wrong with showing them affection.. what else is there to do?!? 

[Federico del pueblo]

6 hours ago, Nightwise said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think 9's and 10's are supposed to be like in the eyes of most men, are these arrogant. pompous women who put on a lot of make-up, make sure they stay in good physical shape and perhaps get things like breast implants and get cosmetic surgery, and they walk around with an air like they're better than everyone else.

I'll happily correct you.

The "9s" and "10s" are not necessarily pompous women with a lot of make up, they are simply the physically most attractive women from most guys POVs.

Is it good to rate anyone as a 6, 8 or 10? No it's not good. Of course it's objectifying.

But let's not fool ourselves here. If nobody rated girls as anything from 1 to 10, then we would still rate their attractiveness in some way.

Instead of 7 you'd say "a cute girl" and instead of 10 you'd say "super hot girl".

And no, the most attractive women don't have to have breast implants or cosmetic surgery either.

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and they walk around with an air like they're better than everyone else.

Well, not necessarily. Some do, some don't.

And it's actually men who instill this kind of behaviour in these girls.

If all guys constantly tell you how amazing and beautiful you are and kiss your ass all the time, ofc at some point you get a little cocky and also raise your standards for what you think you're entitled to and have a bit of an hard to get attitude.

Then there is this idea of not putting hot girls on a pedestal...

I mean you can do 1 of 2 things.

Either you completely leave these most attractive girls alone, or you go for them.

If you go for them there's not gonna be any way for you to not put them on a pedestal for some time. Unless you've had sex with quite a few of them they are gonna be on a pedestal, you won't just think them off the pedestal, your emotions that stem from your social conditioning will be stronger than any "she's just a girl after all, let's not put her on a pedestal" thoughts.

Of course you can and should look for other qualities in a girl than good looks, nobody is saying you should only go by how physically hot a girl is.

6 hours ago, Nightwise said:

I would quickly flip the script and just ask her: "Why should I be interested in you? Do you think you're entitled of getting everything you want from men just because you wear a lot of make-up, put on sexy clothes and act all haughty and above-it-all? What do you have as far as character and substance is concerned? Why would you be a good and trustworthy partner that I would want to date? I want submissive and humble women and I only see arrogance in you so please get away"

Well exactly. Nobody says you should do the opposite, which is being completely sold the moment a girl talks to you.

But then again, how often will a "10" approach you to then act entitled, like she already knows she can have you, is that a very frequent scenario?

In reality most of the times you have to walk up to a girl yourself and start talking, so you're clearly showing some level of interest, so as you may rather hear something from her along these lines of "Why should I be interested in you?".

It's also just a belief that very attractive women are automatically super arrogant, bitchy, aloof or whatever. Some are, some aren't.

[kamwalker]

It's hard to not unconsciously judge people's physical appearances. I don't like the rating system either, but I'd be lying if I said I don't evaluate someone's physical appearance when I first meet them regardless of whether I want to or not. 

It also is very subjective though. I like women who look more plain. I find one of my close friends really physically attractive and even though other people do as well, I can tell she is still a bit insecure about how she looks because she doesn't look like a physically fit IG model. I find her way hotter than some random "9". 

[actualizing25]

@Leo Gura What girl would be your ideal type, Leo? What does she has to have to be a 10 in your eyes?

[Federico del pueblo]

https://youtu.be/MZHgydnSn0Q

This 3 minute video fits in the thread really well I think ?

 

 

[K Ghoul]

4 minutes ago, Federico del pueblo said:

https://youtu.be/MZHgydnSn0Q

This 3 minute video fits in the thread really well I think ?

 

 

LOLOL ahahahah gold

”American settlers” lol

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, actualizing25 said:

@Leo Gura What girl would be your ideal type, Leo? What does she has to have to be a 10 in your eyes?

None of your business.

[mmKay]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

None of your business.

I actually found the list you posted some time ago insightful. 

[aurum]

14 hours ago, Nightwise said:

I never really resonated with this idea that I needed to progress my way towards getting these "9's and 10's". From the very beginning that seemed rather nonsense to me. I didn't see why girls whom society at large would judge them as having a 'more attractive appearance' would have truly more inherent worth and value than other girls.

But no one is saying that.

Dude you can sleep with whoever you want. If you want to sleep with fat girls because you can see their inner beauty, no one is stopping you.

The reason there’s pressure to go for 9s and 10s from pickup coaches is because that’s what most guys want! If every guy in the universe suddenly decided they wanted a 3, pickup coaches would start talking about how to get a 3. And a 3 would become a 10.

It’s just a way to say “I’m really want this person” or “I don’t really want this person”.

And you could argue that pickup coaches influence their students to want 9s and 10s in a sort of bilateral casualty, but they still can’t make you do it. Nor do they care more than you do about your dating life.

Regarding this idea you have that traditional 9s and 10s are more cocky, that’s because they know they have what guys want. If you had women throwing themselves at you constantly, you’d be the same.

Also, many of them are not that way. How many 9s and 10s have you actually dated in your life? Or had a long conversation with? Or seen them at Christmas with their family?

If you don’t want a traditional 9 or 10, that’s fine. But it’s not that confusing as to why many guys would.