"I do not exist" and "There is no self" are false statements

[WokeBloke]

Only that which exists can determine if something exists.

Those that say "there is no I" or "you do not exist" have no ability to determine if you exist since they explicitly claim that they do not exist.

Those that say "there is no self" are like rocks claiming there is no such thing as eyes. Unfortunately they do not possess the ability to determine if you exist or not just as rocks do not have eyes to see if there are eyes.

Only you can determine if you exist or not. No one else can.

And in order to claim that you do not exist, you must exist. Therefore you exist.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by WokeBloke

[Nahm]

2 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

Only you can determine if you exist or not.

Godspeed on your path ?? 

[VeganAwake]

21 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

Only that which exists can determine if something exists.

Those that say "there is no I" or "you do not exist" have no ability to determine if you exist since they explicitly claim that they do not exist.

Those that say "there is no self" are like rocks claiming there is no such thing as eyes. Unfortunately they do not possess the ability to determine if you exist or not just as rocks do not have eyes to see if there are eyes.

Only you can determine if you exist or not. No one else can.

And in order to claim that you do not exist, you must exist. Therefore you exist.

 

 

Exactly, the individual claiming there ISN'T an individual is as unreal as the individual claiming there IS an individual.

 

[RMQualtrough]

Do you believe in duality?

If there is only awareness, then you see that what knows awareness exists is awareness itself. As such awareness is self luminous, in the same way as the Sun is illuminated by the Sun.

If awareness is the sole thing in existence, then sounds are made of awareness, and as we know awareness is self luminous. The sound knows itself and is by itself. Existence knows itself.

SO, when saying I or self or God, it is taking what illuminates itself and adding a non-existent entity onto that equation. E.g. rather than the sound illuminating itself in the same way awareness knows awareness, there is something "else" illuminating it like a God or self or I. The moment there is an "else" there is a divide and finitude.

The self and I are, themselves like sounds and sunsets, just appearances by themselves known to themselves.

All in totality there is just existence. Period. No me in existence. But existence by itself knowing itself, completely alone, no God, no I, none of that beyond appearance. Which is why you can never die, by the way, because you aren't a finite being in reality, you are reality itself. The you element is like all appearances, a mirage.

Edited February 5, 2022 by RMQualtrough

[Breakingthewall]

If you were 1 year old, would there be a self? From your current point of view, you would say: yes, the little woke was hungry and wanted mom. but from the point of view of the 1-year-old woke, there was no little woke. just the experience that occurred. you learned the self later. is an idea created by interacting with others

[ChrisZoZo]

@WokeBloke

[Nahm]

23 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

Only that which exists can determine if something exists.

A mirage can make no determinations in regard to the desert. 

23 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

Those that say "there is no I" or "you do not exist" have no ability to determine if you exist since they explicitly claim that they do not exist.

”Those who say” is already assumption.

23 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

Those that say "there is no self" are like rocks claiming there is no such thing as eyes. Unfortunately they do not possess the ability to determine if you exist or not just as rocks do not have eyes to see if there are eyes.

Only you can determine if you exist or not. No one else can.

You are you. 

23 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

And in order to claim that you do not exist, you must exist. Therefore you exist.

Also assumption. 
 

Thought is only apparent and only dualistic and will not do no matter how much reasoning is believed. 
 

 

[WokeBloke]

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Do you believe in duality?

If there is only awareness, then you see that what knows awareness exists is awareness itself. As such awareness is self luminous, in the same way as the Sun is illuminated by the Sun.

If awareness is the sole thing in existence, then sounds are made of awareness, and as we know awareness is self luminous. The sound knows itself and is by itself. Existence knows itself.

SO, when saying I or self or God, it is taking what illuminates itself and adding a non-existent entity onto that equation. E.g. rather than the sound illuminating itself in the same way awareness knows awareness, there is something "else" illuminating it like a God or self or I. The moment there is an "else" there is a divide and finitude.

The self and I are, themselves like sounds and sunsets, just appearances by themselves known to themselves.

All in totality there is just existence. Period. No me in existence. But existence by itself knowing itself, completely alone, no God, no I, none of that beyond appearance. Which is why you can never die, by the way, because you aren't a finite being in reality, you are reality itself. The you element is like all appearances, a mirage.

 When the sound ceases does your awareness cease? 

To me this is a clear indication that awareness is more fundamental then sound.

 

Do sounds see, walk, talk or think?

I think you are conflating the manifestation with the uncreated source. Sounds can't bring themselves into existence. Only the source of sounds which is not a sound can do that in my view.

 

 

 

[LastThursday]

On 04/02/2022 at 10:37 PM, WokeBloke said:

"you do not exist"

You're missing the point. Clearly you do exist. It would be better worded as "a you is not necessary for existence". You can remove yourself (the subjective experience of being an observer) from the equation but existence carries on anyway. This is because you (the observer) and reality (the observed) are one thing and not two separate things.

Edited February 5, 2022 by LastThursday

[WokeBloke]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

If you were 1 year old, would there be a self? From your current point of view, you would say: yes, the little woke was hungry and wanted mom. but from the point of view of the 1-year-old woke, there was no little woke. just the experience that occurred. you learned the self later. is an idea created by interacting with others

It depends how you define self. How do you define self?

[WokeBloke]

@Nahm

The question is whether you exist.

"You are you" is false if you don't exist since there would be no you to be you.

If you do not exist then you can't think.

The reason you can think (or have the knowledge that thoughts appear) is because you exist.

Therefore you exist.

Your response is just more proof that you exist.

[ChrisZoZo]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

Quote

And in order to claim that you do not exist, you must exist. Therefore you exist.

Also assumption. 

Well said the assuming of distinctions is a common trap. 'Not existence' and 'existence' are the same.

The distinction less state is king! I guess that one way to elaborate on your point if you agree? @Nahm

[ChrisZoZo]

2 hours ago, LastThursday said:

On 2/4/2022 at 10:37 PM, WokeBloke said:

"you do not exist"

You're missing the point. Clearly you do exist. It would be better worded as "a you is not necessary for existence". You can remove yourself (the subjective experience of being an observer) from the equation but existence carries on anyway. This is because you (the observer) and reality (the observed) are one thing and not two separate things.

I have talked to people who follow Buddhism and state you don't exist. May be more to their point but I felt they believed in the fact that they didn't exist. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by ChrisZoZo

[Nahm]

@ChrisZoZo

Yes.

2 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

@Nahm

The question is whether you exist.

"You are you" is false if you don't exist since there would be no you to be you.

If you do not exist then you can't think.

The reason you can think (or have the knowledge that thoughts appear) is because you exist.

Therefore you exist.

Your response is just more proof that you exist.

Thoughts appear. If interested, check & verify that in direct experience, and also in regard to actually finding or locating ‘the thinker’. If a thought arises as the answer, notice that is a thought, and keep looking / inquiring. Again, if interested. My suggestion would be to at least consider this is rumination and to self inquire into the feeling (on the back of daily meditation, for the ‘space’ / ‘clarity’ prior). 

[RMQualtrough]

2 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

 When the sound ceases does your awareness cease? 

To me this is a clear indication that awareness is more fundamental then sound.

Do sounds see, walk, talk or think?

I think you are conflating the manifestation with the uncreated source. Sounds can't bring themselves into existence. Only the source of sounds which is not a sound can do that in my view.

That's the thing, there is no "my" awareness or "your" awareness, or "God's" awareness. These are all possessive terms.

There is awareness.

All things which are, are modulations of that same substance. There is nothing more to a sound but the qualia of the sound, which like awareness is self luminous like how awareness knows awareness. Leo did not explain this well in his video on this matter IMO. But I don't know if I can either...

When you speak of the self you are talking about Sunyata, you mean the void right? And you are thinking the void observes the forms it produces.

Try: The forms are made OF the void (which is pure awareness), and the observing OF those forms is one and the same thing as the form itself.

Closest way I can word it currently, is to indeed imagine sounds hear themselves. Because we only get duality. But there isn't a sound that hears itself, just the sound PERIOD. Do you get it? A sound is self luminous, when it falls back into void (what empty awareness is) another form may arise like a sight, and that sight too is self luminous.

Remove the notion of the self, even as void, and experience the self luminous singular undivided reality where reality knows itself without anything separate from it.

See picture below... From the ego perspective there is a cycle of life and death. When you recognize there is no segmented off you entity, and rather you are literally reality itself, you realize there is no self to die or be born. You are reality. Infinite, eternal, undivided.

 

[ChrisZoZo]

5 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

 

You can speak when your dead! 

[WokeBloke]

@RMQualtrough

Thank you for your post it was enlightening!

Theoretically I agree there is just you/I which refers to the same indivisible awareness.

It is self-aware or self-luminous. It exists by itself.

Consider two sounds occurring simultaneously (perhaps two different people's voices). Does sound 1 know about sound 2? Sound 1 is not sound 2 yet you say they are both aware. That suggest that each sound is a different awareness. However if there is only one awareness which hears both sounds then it must not be the sound which are aware. These manifestations or modulations only exist because of awarneess but awarneess can't be reduced to the manifestation.

 

[RMQualtrough]

6 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

@RMQualtrough

Thank you for your post it was enlightening!

Theoretically I agree there is just you/I which refers to the same indivisible awareness.

It is self-aware or self-luminous. It exists by itself.

Consider two sounds occurring simultaneously (perhaps two different people's voices). Does sound 1 know about sound 2? Sound 1 is not sound 2 yet you say they are both aware. That suggest that each sound is a different awareness. However if there is only one awareness which hears both sounds then it must not be the sound which are aware. These manifestations or modulations only exist because of awarneess but awarneess can't be reduced to the manifestation.

 

A sound doesn't possess awareness, awareness has sounds. Awareness is the sole "substance" in reality and its isolated nature is that it is nothing (emptiness, Sunyata).

All things are simply modulations of the only awareness that is. They are all self luminous like awareness. They do not have their own ego selves or points of view, they are constructed from pure awareness (void), and just as awareness is self illuminating, so too are these constructions. It's like the qualia appears but to nobody.

There can be many many things happening at once. I have my own thoughts on that as I'm not sure there are ever multiple things happening at once, or if all happenings (like a sight and sound) conglomerate to produce one singular unit of self luminous happening. In other words if I play some Toto while looking at the Eiffel Tower, and play the same track while looking at something else, I think the "happening" I speak of might be different... I suspect the music is not separate or distinct from any other happening. I think we may just categorize things as sound or color unfairly, when actually the difference between a C note on a piano, and the color red, is no more different than the color red and the color blue. We apply the categories of color and sound.

[TRUTHWITHCAPITALT]

@WokeBloke This is the classical mind body problem. 

Actually they are correct from the absolute perspective as everything is consciousness.

To exist the house of card has to be constructed.

If there is an ego, of course you exist. Since you are an illusion though you don't exist. Quite a mind fuck.

 

 

 

On 04/02/2022 at 5:37 PM, WokeBloke said:

Only that which exists can determine if something exists.

Those that say "there is no I" or "you do not exist" have no ability to determine if you exist since they explicitly claim that they do not exist.

Those that say "there is no self" are like rocks claiming there is no such thing as eyes. Unfortunately they do not possess the ability to determine if you exist or not just as rocks do not have eyes to see if there are eyes.

Only you can determine if you exist or not. No one else can.

And in order to claim that you do not exist, you must exist. Therefore you exist.

 

 

 

[happyhappy]

what a mindfuck!