Mr. Girl's critic of Dr. K. Thoughts?

[Carl-Richard]

@CultivateLove I'm not going to keep derailing the thread with you. Sorry if I made you feel bad by attacking you.

[CultivateLove]

@Carl-Richard It doesn't have to be a derailment if you simply make level-headed counterpoints to my stance we can get somewhere, instead of empty crap like "herp derp meme herp derp". First thing I'd like to get clarification on is why do you think that a point is automatically dismissible due to it being in a meme format? 

Secondly, you didn't make me feel bad, instead I found this to be an intriguing exchange, if I made you feel bad then I sincerely apologize, despite what it may seem, it's not my intention.

[Leo Gura]

16 hours ago, mmKay said:

True but it just happens that Reckful specifically told him that he values his opinion a lot on the topic and he takes him as an authority on the subject because he didn't know if he was doing smth valid and healthy for him or he was being a drug addict, so im just saying that it felt as dr. K accidentally kicked his crutch.

But Dr K is even open to mushrooms. I heard him recommending it as a possible method of healing. So it's not like Dr K was even anti-psychedelics.

13 hours ago, Max_V said:

@Leo Gura  I’m more on the side of: Dr.k could’ve done a much better job providing the help Reckful needed.

Perhaps, but also therapists and coaches are human and they make errors in judgment sometimes.

Overall I find Dr K to be professional, empathetic, and careful when speaking to people. He doesn't just mouth off, he is careful and intelligent in framing his coaching questions.

8 hours ago, Scholar said:

That's the Self-help mentality that I do not like, when someone is suicidal, clearly they are not thinking in terms of "good reason". With that logic, any doctor giving bad advice can just say "Well my patient shouldn't have been so stupid and listen to me lol, what does he expect?".

The entire issue is that people cannot use their head, and when they do they end up being conspiracy theorists most of the time. They didn't spend their entire life studying philosophy like you did Leo.

Yes, but on the other hand there is no cure for stupidity. Life demands having a good head on one's shoulders, otherwise shit like this happens. A grown adult ultimately has to be able to make judgment calls for himself, even if employing the use of experts and advisors. You are the CEO of your life. If a doctor tells you to take a pill, you can't just blindly take it. You gotta do your own research and make sure that pill won't kill you.

Quote

Clearly such an individual is not rational and cannot be held responsible for his actions.

But if an individual is so far gone that he cannot make basic rational decisions, in the end no one can save him from that. Even if Dr K babysat him for 2 years, he still probably would have killed himself because the issue is lack of good judgment. His family even had a history of that, so clearly this was a very deep-seated issue that I doubt even a year of therapy would solve.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

21 hours ago, Scholar said:

Another discussion, with Destiny, MrGirl and Dr Avi:

 

 

   This was a good share. I liked how both Destiny and Mr. Girl handled themselves here along with Dan's participation that makes this a more enjoyable watch through for me at least.

   I don't understand why it's a strong vision and has a good business impact on the online streaming community of online gamers. To me, Healthy Gamers, like all businesses, has to depend on problems existing to further the survival of a business. Without online gamers/streamers experiencing negative states of being, unproductive emotional states, cognitive decline like increases in ADHD and depression with over use of internet, and developing attachments to their avatars and online sub cultures. Could you elaborate on that please?

   I have the strong feeling that part of Mr. Girls critic of Dr. K stems from part attention grabbing, part recognition of a potential misapplication of and deliberate erasure of what is an online chat vs online therapy, and a large part of recognizing that some part of Dr. K or this situation hit close to home with Mr. Girl's past. He did say he came from a lineage of therapists himself and grew up in such a household, so it is partially true that his trigger is coming from this. I wouldn't say he's emotionally immature either, he's more emotionally developed that he is sensitive and empathizes with most people, even the evilest ones. What makes this more difficult is Mr. Girl's communication style, it can sometimes be explicit, but similar to Jordan Peterson, he speaks in lots of abstractions and tries to interconnect different topics that have contextual relevance, but when sometimes pressed, he does come off as slippery in his responses.   

Edited February 22, 2022 by Danioover9000

[Preety_India]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

But if an individual is so far gone that he cannot make basic rational decisions, in the end no one can save him from that. Even if Dr K babysat him for 2 years, he still probably would have killed himself because the issue is lack of good judgment. His family even had a history of that, so clearly this was a very deep-seated issue that I doubt even a year of therapy would solve.

I don't understand why he didn't take professional therapy? What would have been the harm? 

Also side note, when you weren't here, that adeptus bhobhotica was blowin up the forum, so I had to tell a mod to lock that thread, that ruckus was over,that paywall thread. 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Preety_India

[CultivateLove]

6 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I don't understand why he didn't take professional therapy? What would have been the harm? 

I recall Reckfull saying something about having a bad experience with a therapist in the past.

 

[Preety_India]

Just now, CultivateLove said:

I recall Reckfull saying something about having a bad experience with a therapist in the past.

 

I see. 

 

[Leo Gura]

It's no surprise that psychologically dysfunctional people with poor judgment will not have the wisdom necessary to enroll in and complete a course of therapy. These people usually spend their whole lives avoiding facing truth and their emotional wounds/trauma.

Also therapy is expensive and tedious. It requires work. Most people who are depressed or suicidal will not want to do that work.

The paradox of therapy is that the people who need it the most are usually the sort who are least interested in doing it and also cannot afford it.

In general I would guess that a person who kills himself would probably have kill himself at some point in life, and that no one thing anyone says or does to him is the cause of the suicide. Suicidal people usually have a long history of suicidal ideation and attempts. They don't just wake up one day, watch a few bad advice videos, and then decide to kill themselves. If one thing doesn't push them over the edge, another thing will. There can be hundreds of things that could push them over the edge simply because they are already teetering on the edge anyways.

I mean this Reckful dude said he tried to kill himself when he was 16 because his favorite MMORPG video game lost users to WoW. If this is not dumb then I don't know what is. A person that fragile will not be able to handle the ups and down of life. Life will hit you with downs pretty hard sometimes. You gotta be willing to handle them. And you can't depend on someone to babysit you through each one.

Bottom line is, you need to develop a thick skin to survive life.

[Yali]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

you need to develop a thick skin to survive life.

you think suicide/mental-illness is a matter of not having a thick enough skin? an avoidance of suffering? @Leo Gura

Edited February 22, 2022 by Yali

[SOUL]

I am familiar with both of these individuals before this situation developed and have some interesting perspective to share about this.

For one thing and the most important in my mind is that the online social media world as well as the gaming world there is a definite need for a path to well being. Millions even tens of millions of people and content creators are spreading misery through a cycle of abuse all over the internet....well, not just the internet. I could expand it to hundreds of millions and yes billions of people empowering the cycle of abuse in real life all over the world.

Mental health care in the US is very expensive and has a stigma attached to it, I'm not sure how much different that is in other countries because I don't have personal experience with the health care systems there regarding mental health. Although, I suspect the stigma associated with seeking therapy of any sort isn't limited to North America so people are reluctant to seek it out and this isn't leading to an improvement in people's mental health or well being.

I don't want to give too many opinions about the clash of content creators in the circumstance but it doesn't seem like DrK was intentionally malicious towards anyone even if there were some breaches of ethics or conflicts around profit motives, he genuinely wanted to help even if he made mistakes. It's not up to me to decide whether he did something to violate his oath but I don't accept as truth the opinions of others who have nothing to lose either.

On the other hand I don't get a similar impression from the other party in this situation. Contrary with them professing a purpose of increasing empathy for others their actions speak to a different source of motivation at least on how it effects those that consume their content. I cannot discern someone's intent I can only witness their behavior and how if influences others but that is what we are left with from their actions, not their intentions.

There is also something very saddening about the tragic loss of a content creator. Even though he had a traumatic experience with the mental health profession he still reached out wanting to heal the self suffering he was experiencing but unfortunately it wasn't sufficient enough to ease the pain and save him from himself. I don't think it helps anyone in trying to use him as a weapon or a shield, just let it be.

There is also something kind of curious in a statement I saw him make in one video I watched even though I can't remember which one it was and I can't recite it verbatim only give a synapses of his message. Reckful said he felt like there was nothing left to do here, like he was in some video game, that he needed to move on to the next level and the only way to do it might be to die. I absolutely knew exactly where he was since I have been living it for decades.

Now don't get the wrong idea, I'm not suicidal at all, in fact it's the complete opposite. When I realized I was 'done' here I was young living life on the edge and didn't expect to survive my 20s, I thought I was in overtime so to speak. I was awakened and transcended identity, so think about how many speak about life here, too. There's a similar theme, no? I think many of us know exactly where he was in consciousness because we have had glimpses of it or are there.

He was using psychedelics not just hero dose quests but also in daily microdose scenarios. So he was transcending identity and experiencing no self awareness but wasn't getting the feedback from the people around him to put all the pieces together and have a healthy context for what he was perceiving. He was left to his own monkey mind's machinations and history of self suffering to sort out his path and what happened, did.

This doesn't mean the psychobabble people go in circles with on this forum would have been any better but there is wisdom that would have been useful to him. I'm not going to turn this into a criticism of people on this forum or anywhere in the spiritual and mystical community but you people are lost and distracted from the mental navel gazing that goes on with all the complicated conceptualizations that people fixate on.

I just wonder what might have been if he got some input from people who have experience in the abstract conscious states and had the well meaning approach to bring about healing and well being. I guess we will never know but this whole drama whoring content farming circus performance just reminds me that this isn't going to get any better any sooner unless there is a dramatic shift in people so they seek well being for themselves.

Edited February 24, 2022 by SOUL

[Danioover9000]

@SOUL

9 minutes ago, SOUL said:

I am familiar with both of these individuals before this situation developed and have some interesting perspective to share about this.

For one thing and the most important in my mind is that the online social media world as well as the gaming world there is a definite need for a path to well being. Millions even tens of millions of people and content creators are spreading misery through a cycle of abuse all over the internet....well, not just the internet, I could expand it to hundreds of million and yes billions of people empowering the cycle of abuse in real life all over the world.

Mental health care in the US is very expensive and has a stigma attached to it, I'm not sure how much different that is in other countries because I don't have personal experience with the health care systems there regarding mental health. Although, I suspect the stigma associated with seeking therapy of any sort isn't limited to North America so people are reluctant to seek it out and this isn't leading to an improvement in people's mental health or well being.

I don't want to give too many opinions about the clash of content creators in the circumstance but it doesn't seem like DrK was intentionally malicious towards anyone even if there were some breeches of ethics or conflicts around profit motives, he genuinely wanted to help even if he made mistakes. It's not up to me to decide whether he did something to violate his oath but I don't accept as truth the opinions of others who have nothing to lose either.

On the other hand I don't get a similar impression from the other party in this situation. Contrary with them professing a purpose of increasing empathy for others their actions speak to a different source of motivation at least on how it effects those that consume their content. I cannot discern someone's intent I can only witness their behavior and how if influences others but that is what we are left with from their actions, not their intentions.

There is also something very saddening about the tragic loss of a content creator. Even though he had a traumatic experience with the mental health profession he still reached out wanting to heal the self suffering he was experiencing but unfortunately it wasn't sufficient enough to ease the pain and save him from himself. I don't think it helps anyone in trying to use him as a weapon or a shield, just let it be.

There is also something kind of curious in a statements I saw him make in one video I watched even though I can't remember which one it was and I can't recite it verbatim only give a synapses of his message. Reckful said he felt like there was nothing left to do here, like he was in some video game, that he needed to move on to the next level and the only way to do it might be to die. I absolutely knew exactly where he was since I have been living it for decades.

Now don't get the wrong idea, I'm not suicidal at all, in fact it's the complete opposite. When I realized I was 'done' here I was young living life on the edge and didn't expect to survive my 20s, I thought I was in overtime so to speak. I was awakened and transcended identity, think about how many speak about life here, too. There's a similar theme, no? I think many of us know exactly where he was in consciousness because have had glimpses of it or are there.

He was using psychedelics not just hero dose quests but also in daily microdose scenarios. So he was transcending identity and experiencing no self awareness but wasn't getting the feedback from the people around him to put all the pieces together and have a healthy context for what he was perceiving. He was left to his pwn monkey mind's machinations and history of self suffering to sort out his path and what happened did so.

This doesn't mean the psychobabble people go in circles with on this forum would have been any better but there is wisdom that would have been useful to him. I'm not going to turn this into a criticism of people on this forum or anywhere in the spiritual and mystical community but you people are lost and distracted from the mental navel gazing that goes on with all the complicated conceptualizations that goes on.

I just wonder what might have been if he got some input from people who have experience in the abstract conscious states and had the well meaning approach to bring about healing and well being. I guess we will never know but this whole drama whoring content farming circus performance just reminds me that this isn't going to get any better any sooner unless there is a dramatic shift in people so they seek well being for themselves.

      Well said.

[Scholar]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's no surprise that psychologically dysfunctional people with poor judgment will not have the wisdom necessary to enroll in and complete a course of therapy. These people usually spend their whole lives avoiding facing truth and their emotional wounds/trauma.

Also therapy is expensive and tedious. It requires work. Most people who are depressed or suicidal will not want to do that work.

The paradox of therapy is that the people who need it the most are usually the sort who are least interested in doing it and also cannot afford it.

In general I would guess that a person who kills himself would probably have kill himself at some point in life, and that no one thing anyone says or does to him is the cause of the suicide. Suicidal people usually have a long history of suicidal ideation and attempts. They don't just wake up one day, watch a few bad advice videos, and then decide to kill themselves. If one thing doesn't push them over the edge, another thing will. There can be hundreds of things that could push them over the edge simply because they are already teetering on the edge anyways.

I mean this Reckful dude said he tried to kill himself when he was 16 because his favorite MMORPG video game lost users to WoW. If this is not dumb then I don't know what is. A person that fragile will not be able to handle the ups and down of life. Life will hit you with downs pretty hard sometimes. You gotta be willing to handle them. And you can't depend on someone to babysit you through each one.

Bottom line is, you need to develop a thick skin to survive life.

Leo, no offense but these kinds of posts make me think you are autistic, and I am not even saying this to offend you but I genuinely think that you lack some sort of function in your mind in regards to the social/empathy.

 

Interestingly enough is that you are moralizing alot in this post. The reality is the reality, people cannot handle things and they need help, this phenomena is only getting worse. We can't just ignore this issue, we have policies in place to avoid unnecessary harm to these individuals, and one of these are medical ethics.

 

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I mean this Reckful dude said he tried to kill himself when he was 16 because his favorite MMORPG video game lost users to WoW. If this is not dumb then I don't know what is. A person that fragile will not be able to handle the ups and down of life. Life will hit you with downs pretty hard sometimes. You gotta be willing to handle them. And you can't depend on someone to babysit you through each one.

This especially. The guy wasn't suicidal because he couldn't play the game anymore, he was already depressed and that game was probably one of the few things that gave him joy in life, and when that was gone it was enough to push him into suicidality. You seem to have a real lack of experience in regards to mental health problems, like I said you very much remind me of Destiny, he was arguing the very same way you do, calling these things dumb and not really understanding them. You are extremely fortunate in regards to the mind you have, and you do simply not realize how much of an exception it is (which was the case with Destiny aswell).

This is why alot of your advice on self-help just doesn't apply to most people, their mind won't allow for it. "You gotta handle them", is something someone would say who has a kind of mind who never really had a true difficulty handling something. You never failed at mental health, you do not see how bad it can get. You are like "lol, auto-immune disorders? Haha, just eat healthy my dude, I also have a stomache ache sometimes, you gotta be able to handle that", meanwhile the person you talk to has barely energy and focus to do anything for more than 2 hours a day.

 

I think Destiny took a huge dose of mushrooms that put him in an existential crisis and depression for over a year where he had panick attacks and everything, and that's what it took for him to realize how silly his perspective on life was, where he just thought everyone was like him and had to get their shit together. He had no idea what kind of mind states are possible. Mind-states that you can't just handle, or reason your way out of, or tough through. Mind-states that completely disable you and the way you function, where you don't even know what it was like before you had them. I think you know all of this you just have a difficult time truly integrating it, it's like you know it intelectually but you don't truly know it, which is why you probably have to experience this for yourself, and suffer..

And of course we can help such people, we do all the time, and we seek to protect the vulnerable people from being exploited by sharks. How is that not the most conscious thing to do?

Edited February 23, 2022 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

4 hours ago, Scholar said:

Leo, no offense but these kinds of posts make me think you are autistic, and I am not even saying this to offend you but I genuinely think that you lack some sort of function in your mind in regards to the social/empathy.

 

Interestingly enough is that you are moralizing alot in this post. The reality is the reality, people cannot handle things and they need help, this phenomena is only getting worse. We can't just ignore this issue, we have policies in place to avoid unnecessary harm to these individuals, and one of these are medical ethics.

 

This especially. The guy wasn't suicidal because he couldn't play the game anymore, he was already depressed and that game was probably one of the few things that gave him joy in life, and when that was gone it was enough to push him into suicidality. You seem to have a real lack of experience in regards to mental health problems, like I said you very much remind me of Destiny, he was arguing the very same way you do, calling these things dumb and not really understanding them. You are extremely fortunate in regards to the mind you have, and you do simply not realize how much of an exception it is (which was the case with Destiny aswell).

This is why alot of your advice on self-help just doesn't apply to most people, their mind won't allow for it. "You gotta handle them", is something someone would say who has a kind of mind who never really had a true difficulty handling something. You never failed at mental health, you do not see how bad it can get. You are like "lol, auto-immune disorders? Haha, just eat healthy my dude, I also have a stomache ache sometimes, you gotta be able to handle that", meanwhile the person you talk to has barely energy and focus to do anything for more than 2 hours a day.

 

I think Destiny took a huge dose of mushrooms that put him in an existential crisis and depression for over a year where he had panick attacks and everything, and that's what it took for him to realize how silly his perspective on life was, where he just thought everyone was like him and had to get their shit together. He had no idea what kind of mind states are possible. Mind-states that you can't just handle, or reason your way out of, or tough through. Mind-states that completely disable you and the way you function, where you don't even know what it was like before you had them. I think you know all of this you just have a difficult time truly integrating it, it's like you know it intelectually but you don't truly know it, which is why you probably have to experience this for yourself, and suffer..

And of course we can help such people, we do all the time, and we seek to protect the vulnerable people from being exploited by sharks. How is that not the most conscious thing to do?

   Well, the main factor in why Leo's communication has this degree of autistic feeling is that his personality typing is INTP. People with this type of personality are highly introverted and logical, and typically have less range of EQ to internalise and externalise, which mainly gives people the impression that such people have some autistism based on their communication.

   Enhancing cognitive performance and development also has tradeoffs too. When cognitive performance is enhanced, the mind has more tendency to conceptualize mostly linearly and sometimes broadly, which creating this head space activity of energy far higher than that of people with body biases, which is why some geniuses sometimes don't have that emotional connection to other people and why they are sometimes lost in their minds.

   Relatively speaking, Leo is a business owner, and given what happened recently here in the forum, it is not surprising to see from you how Leo is moralizing here. There can be differences and parallels drawn between the situation that happened between Reckfull and Dr. K, versus what happened here. It's not surprising his moral development allows him to relate more to a business owner and less to someone whose deeply a victim,  suffering from likely chronic depression which is state wise different from a typical depression, and has Bipolar disorder, which is harder to emphasize with and understand for someone who doesn't have that cognitive thinking.

   So, it turns out to be more surprising that you had to point this out, given many of the recent events that happened here.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Danioover9000

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   Well, the main factor in why Leo's communication has this degree of autistic feeling is that his personality typing is INTP. People with this type of personality are highly introverted and logical, and typically have less range of EQ to internalise and externalise, which mainly gives people the impression that such people have some autistism based on their communication.

   Enhancing cognitive performance and development also has tradeoffs too. When cognitive performance is enhanced, the mind has more tendency to conceptualize mostly linearly and sometimes broadly, which creating this head space activity of energy far higher than that of people with body biases, which is why some geniuses sometimes don't have that emotional connection to other people and why they are sometimes lost in their minds.

   Relatively speaking, Leo is a business owner, and given what happened recently here in the forum, it is not surprising to see from you how Leo is moralizing here. There can be differences and parallels drawn between the situation that happened between Reckfull and Dr. K, versus what happened here. It's not surprising his moral development allows him to relate more to a business owner and less to someone whose deeply a victim,  suffering from likely chronic depression which is state wise different from a typical depression, and has Bipolar disorder, which is harder to emphasize with and understand for someone who doesn't have that cognitive thinking.

   So, it turns out to be more surprising that you had to point this out, given many of the recent events that happened here.

I think Leo has been like this since he was on camera, I don't think it has anything to do with what happened recently. I am INTP too and I seem to not have these blindspots, and I know INTP people who don't have these blindspots either, so I think it is something in addition to that, that causes this blindness.

And I don't understand what is surprising about me pointing this out. The cause for this is irrelevant, I am trying to aid Leo in seeing his blindspots.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

3 hours ago, Scholar said:

I think Leo has been like this since he was on camera, I don't think it has anything to do with what happened recently. I am INTP too and I seem to not have these blindspots, and I know INTP people who don't have these blindspots either, so I think it is something in addition to that, that causes this blindness.

And I don't understand what is surprising about me pointing this out. The cause for this is irrelevant, I am trying to aid Leo in seeing his blindspots.

   Fair enough.

[Danioover9000]

   Good listen to, and how Mr. Girl addresses some of the other fans that call in.

[mmKay]

On 22/2/2022 at 9:01 PM, Leo Gura said:

I mean this Reckful dude said he tried to kill himself when he was 16 because his favorite MMORPG video game lost users to WoW. If this is not dumb then I don't know what is.

It may be dumb, but if a video game is all you had in your life then it being taken away from you is no joke.
 

Just wanted to share the virual funeral the World of warcraft comunity gave him. Truly beautiful and brings me to tears every time. I cry very rarely and this makes my cheeks pour. The video keeps getting more beautiful by the moment.

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by mmKay

[Max_V]

@mmKay I was there. It was very moving how the community came together

[Danioover9000]

@mmKay

19 hours ago, mmKay said:

It may be dumb, but if a video game is all you had in your life then it being taken away from you is no joke.
 

Just wanted to share the virual funeral the World of warcraft comunity gave him. Truly beautiful and brings me to tears every time. I cry very rarely and this makes my cheeks pour. The video keeps getting more beautiful by the moment.

 

   I've seen that video, it was very moving how all the community gave the memorial. Shows how serious and deep the online gaming community is.

[Danioover9000]

@Bando

On 21/02/2022 at 9:03 PM, Bando said:

Just checked out his channel it looks like he made a response video to the buzz going around and does a good job addressing the main points being brought against him. 

To be fair I am biased in this discussion as I personally benefited from Dr.K's videos and his Mental Health course especially so maybe i'm being blind to certain things but I trust his character and intentions I cannot say the same with Mr.Girl based of what ive seen of him.

   What I don't like about this video, was how heavily PR it felt, and how passive aggressive he was in addressing Mr. Girl, which is understandable if whatever Dr. K says would be liable to be used against him in a court of law. However, I didn't like how, after Reckfull admitted he was diagnosed BPD, suffered from suicidal ideation and chronic depression, that immediately, Dr. K should've handled this with extreme caution and acknowledged the difference in both their cognitive, moral, values, sense making, states of consciousness and emotional states, and life experiences such that communication should be done carefully. But no, instead Dr. K was a bit reckless, and ended up subtly manipulating Reckfull's vulnerability, and did bend a few ethical codes when he should've kept careful. The whole situation, and my intuition of Dr. K, is that he was manipulative, and whether he was genuine or not, let's say he really wanted to help Reckfull, but the denial and cognitive dissonance is what's giving me the bad vipe of him.

   After a brief look up on Dr. K's background, I dislike him even more.