Mr. Girl's critic of Dr. K. Thoughts?

[Carl-Richard]

@Danioover9000

6:46 I distinctly remember watching this segment live a couple of years ago. I felt that Dr. K was being a bit pushy with his conclusion ("you're on a mission to save kids") and that Reckful didn't truly resonate with it. It becomes much more obvious when it's cut like that.

39:05 Man that's really fucked up. After talking about how he might have BPD and that such people specifically struggle with the fear of abandonment, he said he would stick with him, but then he changes his mind and abandons him.

Yeah, this is a mess. My main takeaway is that therapy ethics is a pool of collective wisdom which has been gathered over decades of clinical practice by thousands of highly knowledgeable people, which is not something that should be taken lightly. To undermine the importance of ethics displays a lack of awareness of the complexities of human interactions, power dynamics, the illusion of control, and systems of wisdom.

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

21 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Danioover9000

6:46 I distinctly remember watching this segment live a couple of years ago. I felt that Dr. K was being a bit pushy with his conclusion ("you're on a mission to save kids") and that Reckful didn't truly resonate with it. It becomes much more obvious when it's cut like that.

39:05 Man that's really fucked up. After talking about how he might have BPD and that such people specifically struggle with the fear of abandonment, he said he would stick with him, but then he changes his mind and abandons him.

Yeah, this is a mess. My main takeaway is that therapy ethics is a pool of collective wisdom which has been gathered over decades of clinical practice by thousands of highly knowledgeable people, which is not something that should be taken lightly. To undermine the importance of ethics displays a lack of awareness of the complexities of human interactions, power dynamics, the illusion of control, and systems of wisdom.

   I agree, Dr. K should have been more careful with his interactions with Reckful.

 

[Scholar]

 

[Carl-Richard]

@Scholar

Mr. Girl: People think you're doing therapy.
Dr. K: I disagree.

[Scholar]

11 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Scholar

Mr. Girl: People think you're doing therapy.
Dr. K: I disagree.

I think Mr Girl has handled this in a bit of an immature way, he seems to be very emotionally invested in this rather than approach it from a perspective that I think even he would view as more helpful. There are valid critiques to make but the way he is making them are not really effective or healthy.

I'm also seeing other streamers jumping on this and having a kind of typical Stage Orange reaction against Dr K, basically making him out to be a manipulator only out for the money. You can see the mentality of "meditation is bullshit" and "he is promoting pseudescience with ayurveda". It is kind of unfortunate because Dr K was doing a really good job getting people from Orange to Green in some aspects atleast. They view him as exceptionally inauthentic.

 

Just skip through this:

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Scholar

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

I think Dr K has handled this in a bit of an immature way, he seems to be very emotionally invested in this rather than approach it from a perspective that I think even he would view as more helpful. There are valid critiques to make but the way he is making them are not really effective or healthy.

It was a big smoke screen.

 

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

I'm also seeing other streamers jumping on this and having a kind of typical Stage Orange reaction against Dr K, basically making him out to be a manipulator only out for the money. You can see the mentality of "meditation is bullshit" and "he is promoting pseudescience with ayurveda". It is kind of unfortunate because Dr K was doing a really good job getting people from Orange to Green in some aspects atleast. They view him as exceptionally inauthentic.

Yeah. Some of that is his own fault though as he apparently brought up weak studies and somebody pointed that out and he acknowledged that.

[Scholar]

8 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

It was a big smoke screen.

lol, sorry I meant Mr Girl not Dr K

 

8 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Yeah. Some of that is his own fault though as he apparently brought up weak studies and somebody pointed that out and he acknowledged that.

That doesn't really justify the backlash and demonization. And the jump from "There are no studies porving ayurveda therefore it's all bullshit", is simply irrational.

[undeather]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

lol, sorry I meant Mr Girl not Dr K

 

That doesn't really justify the backlash and demonization. And the jump from "There are no studies porving ayurveda therefore it's all bullshit", is simply irrational.

Quote

Yeah. Some of that is his own fault though as he apparently brought up weak studies and somebody pointed that out and he acknowledged that.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

Regarding citing studies, Dr. K is doomed if he does  and damned if he doesnt. As Car-Richard pointed out correctly, most of the data regarding Ayurveda is underpowered, hypothetical or simply not there. However, there is a way to understand alternative medicine in a more integral way, but this is a thing  almost unreasonable to expect from his viewerbase/critics. I mean, complex/integral medicine is my daily bread and it took me years to really grasp these concepts in a signifacnt way. 

I kinda anticipated that this was going to happen because this event is a good example of stage yellow vs stage orange dynamics.

Edited February 21, 2022 by undeather

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Scholar said:

lol, sorry I meant Mr Girl not Dr K

Well yeah, that hearkens back to earlier critiques.

 

5 hours ago, Scholar said:

That doesn't really justify the backlash and demonization.

Some of it, not all of it. If you're going through the hassle to bring up studies in the first place, you better bring out the good stuff.

[Scholar]

4 hours ago, undeather said:

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

Regarding citing studies, Dr. K is doomed if he does  and damned if he doesnt. As Car-Richard pointed out correctly, most of the data regarding Ayurveda is underpowered, hypothetical or simply not there. However, there is a way to understand alternative medicine in a more integral way, but this is a thing  almost unreasonable to expect from his viewerbase/critics. I mean, complex/integral medicine is my daily bread and it took me years to really grasp these concepts in a signifacnt way. 

I kinda anticipated that this was going to happen because this event is a good example of stage yellow vs stage orange dynamics.

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-phrase-no-evidence-is-a-red-flag?utm_source=url

 

[Carl-Richard]

49 minutes ago, Scholar said:

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-phrase-no-evidence-is-a-red-flag?utm_source=url

On that topic, even so-called good evidence is limited:

 

On 10.2.2021 at 2:28 AM, Carl-Richard said:

It's a well-established fact that once you put a person in an experimental setting, you're impacting the normal functioning of that person. Therefore, the inverse of the statement in the previous paragraph is also true: just because you can't demonstrate a causal relationship in an experimental environment does not mean it cannot exist outside of that environment.

 

[Leo Gura]

What is this tempest in a teapot scandal?

I would rather have Dr. K talking to gamers than no one talking to them -- which would be the most likely scenario if he stopped talking to them. Not to mention how many people are helped who tune in to watch the show.

The notion that these gamers were gonna go find their own therapists if not for Dr K is laughable to me.

What am I missing in this scandal?? I haven't watched all the videos.

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What is this tempest in a teapot scandal?

I would rather have Dr. K talking to gamers than no one talking to them -- which would be the most likely scenario if he stopped talking to them. Not to mention how many people are helped who tune in to watch the show.

The notion that these gamers were gonna go find their own therapists if not for Dr K is laughable to me.

What am I missing in this scandal?? I haven't watched all the videos.

The main criticism can be found at 8:46:

 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The main criticism can be found at 8:46:

That??!! That is the scandal?

Ahahahahaha....

Mr Girl is turning into a professional troll.

[Preety_India]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What is this tempest in a teapot scandal?

I would rather have Dr. K talking to gamers than no one talking to them -- which would be the most likely scenario if he stopped talking to them. Not to mention how many people are helped who tune in to watch the show.

The notion that these gamers were gonna go find their own therapists if not for Dr K is laughable to me.

What am I missing in this scandal?? I haven't watched all the videos.

Dr K doesn't use ethical standards in coaching them. Maybe his intentions are good. Yet his execution is not good. 

Like he said to one of them that he will be there for him for 2 years. But that guy had BPD and abandonment issues. That is not ethical for a qualified expert. 

He is trying to be friends with his clients. Bad faith behavior. Emotional manipulation? 

 

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That??!! That is the scandal?

Ahahahahaha....

Mr Girl is turning into a professional troll.

Do you think it's a joke?

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Dr K doesn't use ethical standards in coaching them. Maybe his intentions are good. Yet his execution is not good. 

Like he said to one of them that he will be there for him for 2 years. But that guy had BPD and abandonment issues. That is not ethical for a qualified expert. 

He is trying to be friends with his clients. Bad faith behavior. Emotional manipulation?

But the whole point is that he's not doing therapy and these are not his clients.

Obviously he was trying to help Reckless by being his friend when on one else would.

I agree that over-promising is a problem. But was Dr K not there for him? What happened exactly?

Also, don't forget, therapists can make mistakes.

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Do you think it's a joke?

Mr Girl, yes.

On the whole, Dr K's project to help gamers with psychological issues is a very good one. Call it whatever you want. Call it life coaching or therapy or whatever. It's needed. People kill themselves every day anyways.

[Bando]

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Do you think it's a joke?

Tbh I cant really take him serious either can somebody explain in a simple sentence or two what Dr.K is actually doing wrong? I'm gathering that he is too close with the people he talks on stream, he adds spirituality to his principles of psychology or at least concepts that arnt backed up by hardcore scientific evidence and that he makes money from streaming and the reason why this is being brought to attention is because a twitch streamer killed himself.

Its unfortunate that that happened to him but anyone with a brain can understand the net positive Dr.K and his team has had on twitch. Mr.Girl of all people trying to cancel him, just sounds so ridiculous.

I dont watch Dr.K anymore but I remember when I did he was still giving disclosures and the beginning and the end of his videos, what else could he practically do to address some of his critiques?

[Max_V]

@Leo Gura The biggest problem is blurry relationships. Reckful was in a very vulnerable state in these talks, especially because Dr.K didn't create a clear patient-doctor relationship or decided that they were simply friends. To talk about someone's childhood trauma in front of thousands of viewers, while saying it is not therapy, how can that ever be a smart thing to do? At one point during a moment where Reckful was sliding down further and further into depression, Dr.K announced to him that he was going to love him for two years, because he heard that this allegedly has the potential to cure someone's BPD. Reckful was overflowing with happiness and joy because most people had always abandoned him up to that point. Then the next session Dr.K took it back because he thought it over and in restrospect found he could fulfill that promise.

For someone that is deeply fragile psychologically, in a state of being able to end it all any day, to be so unclear about being someone's friend or doctor, if you're going to be there or not, it's very irresponsible. 
He should've known better and tried to get him the help he needed.

[Yarco]

5 minutes ago, Bando said:

can somebody explain in a simple sentence or two what Dr.K is actually doing wrong?

Doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists are held to a much higher standard of ethics than almost any other profession.

His liscence prohibits him from doing stuff like taking clients out for dinner, being their friend, offering to go on a trip with them. It also prohibits him from bartering for his services or doing pro bono work for people who can afford to pay for it.

You aren't allowed to be a therapist for your wife or friend. There needs to be a very clean line and distinction drawn between doctor/patient and any other type of relationship.

I'm a fan of both Dr K and MrGirl so I don't really have a horse in the race. But I would bet money that Dr K is going to lose his medical license over this.

MrGirl's position is that it's not about net good. Most serial killers do net good over the course of their lives.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Yarco