Whoopi Goldberg cancelled for remarks on the Holocaust

[Leo Gura]

It's better not to look at this issue as one of race but ethnicity. Up until 50 years ago humans have all been extremely ethnocentric. Which just means they elevate their ethnic group above all others. And ethnic groups are much smaller groups than races. Ironically, race is too global and too expansive a notion for most racists to think in terms of.

[Danioover9000]

@Yali

2 hours ago, Yali said:

no, you can't be racist & have an inferiority complex.

that makes no sense imo

 

2 hours ago, Yali said:

@Hardkill

how can you have a superiority complex but deep down feel inferior about yourself?

that wouldn't be a superiority complex, but a inferiority complex disguised as a superiority complex.

Racism is a superiority complex with no disguise.

   One example is Michael Jackson. There were other factors involved in what happened to him and his decision to surgically change his skin colour to white, in terms of his values system he gained from his family and culture, the way he thinks, his morality, his ego development, his shadow aspects of his psyche, his state of consciousness, personality typing, other domains of life and his worldview.

   I would say, psychological speaking, from what I can recall, he had an abnormal childhood, it that he had an over bearing father figure, that didn't distinguish family from business/career, merged the two domains to create the Jackson Five, and projected expectations of Michael Jackson as the lead dancer of the family. Because of this, while his career and skill development started quite early as both a singer and dancer, the trade off is that in Micheal Jackson's family and social relationships, is of a lesser quality, in exchange he gained enoigh energy and time in put into development of his skills as a singer and dancer.

[cookiemonster]

5 hours ago, Hardkill said:

always been so envious of their success and intellect. 

 

Any evidence of this?

The primary reason Jesus divorced himself from the Jews was because the Jews are a spiritual malfunction, simply because they identify as Jews - that is to say separate from non-Jews.

Zionism is a perfect car crash built upon the malfunctioned premises of:-

1. Fear of Death

2. Love of Family

That's not something to be proud of. There is no such thing as family, and there is no such thing as death.

The point is to transcend the Animal experience and metamorphize unto the Angel experience which Jesus did perfectly.

Jesus was Jew 2.0. The updated model.

To celebrate the previous generation makes no sense and I don't see any evidence of being envious of a previous generation.

[mememe]

8 hours ago, Hardkill said:

The KKKs know that they have never had the mental fortitude, inner strength, stamina, and athleticism of black people. I think a lot of them also realize deep down that black men in general know how to behave and talk in a more masculine way. They also probably feel insecure about how creative black people can be. African American tend to come up with ingenious things that have helped them deal with the adversities they have had to endure. They also invented Jazz which happens to be some of the best music ever created and rap which of course has been for decades one of most popular kinds of music in the world. 

you might want to separate your own emotions from the ones of a kkk member, don’t you? 

also the gods chosen people part you mentioned earlier not namely was used throughout history in many cultures to justify suppression. (ofc there are a lot of jewish extraordinary people in history, the reason for it is maybe not genetically, but hypothetically because being outsiders of society they thought differently: religion, literacy, mathematics, networking and traveling + justice perspective. think about it)

also how you line up how women have advantages before males with sex and dating in the two first mentioned words is biased, maybe they don’t value these before being taken seriously or allowed to be decisionmakers. its a bit reducing towards social skills and the drive of males towards them.

no offence, think about it.

Edited February 4, 2022 by mememe

[Lyubov]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's better not to look at this issue as one of race but ethnicity. Up until 50 years ago humans have all been extremely ethnocentric. Which just means they elevate their ethnic group above all others. And ethnic groups are much smaller groups than races. Ironically, race is too global and too expansive a notion for most racists to think in terms of.

look up who was sweden's #1 white supremacist at one point... dude looks half black. plenty of skin heads today have jewish blood as well lol. it's ridiculous. slavic skinheads also are a thing. makes no sense. they just now think anyone that's like DARK = bad. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Lyubov

[kray]

2 hours ago, Lyubov said:

look up who was sweden's #1 white supremacist at one point... dude looks half black. plenty of skin heads today have jewish blood as well lol. it's ridiculous. slavic skinheads also are a thing. makes no sense. they just now think anyone that's like DARK = bad. 

It's really stupid. Its essentially a dumb "global north" vs "global south" thing. There are plenty of greek neo nazis, even though many themselves look dark/look Israeli. 

[Dabidoe]

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Jews have a long history of being treated as subhuman.

Growing up in Russia, calling someone a Jew automatically implied that they were inferior and "not pure like us". That was just baked into the word Jew.

Hitler did not invent hating Jews. He merely stole and perfected it. He hated Jews because in his mind they were linked to the spread of communism, which was a kind of globalism which undermined his German nationalism. Jews are a scapegoat for globalism even today.

100% As a Russian Jew myself I get annoyed when people say things like it was "just the holocaust", you guys are doing fine. There have been centuries of oppression (see https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/pogroms, 

 and more.)

Whoopi getting 2 weeks off her daytime TV show for saying such offensive things is hardly being cancelled. I accept her apology (although still find her comments quite ignorant and have lost a great deal of respect for her) and don't think that people should be punished for saying stupid things - just disregarded and corrected.

People really have to embody the ideals of tolerance and loving one another. Nobody should accept such ridiculous statements but that doesn't make Whoopi a bad person... after all Sister Act was hilarious! The real question we should be asking is "why the hell are they talking about the holocaust on the view?" seems ridiculous we have such an endless obsession on division and racial politics all day every day.

[Thought Art]

On 2/3/2022 at 9:09 PM, PurpleTree said:

don't know and i wouldn't know and i'm not a psychologist, also that's probably too simple  

and imo it's easy to say such things as "well they do such and such because they're envious" but that doesn't necessarily make them true

 

but i'm sure there are kids/people who grew up with an inferiority complex because of "life"

then they somehow became white supremacists or whatever and then they think stuff like, well maybe my life and my family is shit but at least i'm from the "good" race then that gives them some sort of a good/superior feeling in comparison to others and they're willing to fight for and defend their race against "others"

 

 

I feel bad for anyone with hate or prejudice in their heart. To think you are better than another.... instead of wanting to love and build a safe world for everyone.

Sad.

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I feel bad for anyone with hate or prejudice in their heart. To think you are better than another.... instead of wanting to love and build a safe world for everyone.

Sad.

yea but it's ingrained in a way, it's nature

it's a scarcity thing

[Loba]

I am kind of ignorant on topics like this... uhm, I saw her talking with Colbert and it seemed like she just didn't understand that the Jews are a race of people, that she wasn't denying anything or trying to cause a problem, just an ignorant mistake.  If I had someone following me around trying to ruin me for every ignorant mistake I made, it would drive me nuts, and cause defensiveness and nothing would be learned - that's no way to correct a mistake, there has to be open dialogue about it.  I feel that's the best way to remedy situations like this.

I've been in the hot seat before and it's kind of confusing; it feels like doing something wrong accidentally in a different culture and not knowing fully "why", and then having to deal with other people's emotionality on top of it - so there isn't even an open dialogue to discuss "why" or "why not".  You just kind of get forced a world view - even if it is correct, the person doesn't come to that conclusion on their own through dialogue, but through emotionality.

That is what I feel is wrong with how people go about correcting others who are ignorant.  You have to be willing to set aside emotionality and discuss it with the person as if they are learning a new language.  Teach.  You know?

We all win that way.  It's so obvious she just didn't fully know all the details and wasn't trying to cause harm.

[mememe]

On 4.2.2022 at 7:39 PM, Dabidoe said:

The real question we should be asking is "why the hell are they talking about the holocaust on the view?" seems ridiculous we have such an endless obsession on division and racial politics all day every day.

because racism has had a revival the recent years? and maybe because its not that one racism can be evalidated against another one, but still victmized ethnicities often stick to themselves with their fights against it because its also often treated ethnocentristic. i doubt she wanted to say one racism is less worse than another one. they were talking about how political correctness has become sth like a hurdle to communicate about the underlying problem, which she addressed as condition of men. i mean they were talking about the future of children who feel psychologically affected by the past of their grand- or grand-grandparents who probably got more traumatized by reality than a book would do.

while in the 60ies 70ies 80ies people fought for equal rights, discussing these topics quite openly.

Edited February 5, 2022 by mememe

[mememe]

4 hours ago, Loba said:

it seemed like she just didn't understand that the Jews are a race of people

if she does or does not i really cannot say, but the holocaust was also about cinty and romans and about anarchists, socialists and communists, in fact also people who were involved with these groups. to make it a genocide alone is not fair for the minorities who died, too. not to speak of psychologically ill and disabled people.

Edited February 5, 2022 by mememe

[Loba]

@mememe Let me put it this way - I got an education at an alternative high school for kids who were going through rough times and this school did not teach history in great detail.  So if, for instance, I had said something not understanding the entire history behind it, it would make more sense to me to hear in a polite way how I am wrong, where, why and what I can do to change it - how was what I said taboo?  

That's the thing, is when we get into taboo topics like this, but where someone is uneducated on the subject like Whoopi was, and even me, I don't know too much about history - then an open discussion and history lesson would be the best way to go about eliciting change in another person.

I think we need to look at each of these cases as individual instances.
So, for instance, I think Joe Rogan is in the wrong, because the taboo of that word is well known; he must have known that you can't use that word - but for Whoopi, it does seem to me like a genuine mistake.

So like, this discussion here, I knew that they had murdered Romani, disabled and mentally ill, but I didn't know about the others, so if I had said something ignorant, I would want to know where and why, for sure, because I would hate having to be on the wrong side of a taboo subject and not know anything about it and then do or say something that hurts other people. 
And I think most people, sans overt racists, do prefer to know what's going on when it comes to this stuff and don't wish to harm other groups of people.

We just have to open up the dialogue for these situations and under a non-emotional, teaching, factual manner for people who are ignorant, but aren't trying to ... fuck shit up for others.
But in situations, like Joe's, where he should know better, then I think calling people like that out is fine.  There are some things, culturally, that you don't do, like use that word.  We are taught this at a young age.

For Whoopi, I think of all the times I have been wrong and would have preferred to learn a better way just by being told and instructed on how to get there.  It can literally feel like, there is a link missing when I say something that is interpreted as wrong or is just plain out wrong.  I would never try to be wrong and know about it and continue with it.

All people just need to be educated to the same level, good discussion can open up worlds for people.

I've been looking at this thread and a few others here, and on a social level I feel very interested in the viewpoints of different people - if open discussion was possible, both parties could go very deep in understanding.  The only thing that holds it back is defensiveness of both parties.  I imagine things like this are more like... you would need to read a lot to really get a good understanding of what is going on.  It makes me sad my school didn't have more to offer in the way of learning history.

I think on this forum in the future people should try to steer conversations like that towards serious dialogue, so that those of us who are interested in understanding more on these topics can ask questions and learn, without there being fights.  Because I know I will step on some landmines on my own journey, and I need to know where they are so I don't detonate them, but a few are going to go off, just like with anyone learning anything that's part of the process.  If there is insane emotionality, then it shuts down communication.

 

[mememe]

yes, it’s important to have more open discourse about it.

here a historical quote which describes it pretty good:

“First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out — because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out — because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out — because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak for me.“

pastor martin niemöller

[Hardkill]

On 2/3/2022 at 5:17 PM, Leo Gura said:

It's better not to look at this issue as one of race but ethnicity. Up until 50 years ago humans have all been extremely ethnocentric. Which just means they elevate their ethnic group above all others. And ethnic groups are much smaller groups than races. Ironically, race is too global and too expansive a notion for most racists to think in terms of.

I see what you're saying.

I also should've mentioned before that even most white British, French, and Austrian men who are protestants and WASP American men, particularly those who are upper-class, have also been somewhat envious and scared of a lot of Irish, Italians, Russians, and other Eastern and Southern Europeans because of how dangerous and smart a lot of them are in their own unique ways. 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Hardkill

[Dabidoe]

@mememe In many ways racism has gotten worse. We have shifted the conversation away from togetherness towards division on both sides of the political spectrum. The vast majority of people are opposed to racism while still endorsing racist beliefs also on both sides.

When I say we need to steer away from the divisve conversation of race I'm not saying ignore it, but rather than just bitch bitch bitch about horrible the world is why not steer people towards the solution which is recognizing and respecting cultures as equals as well as treating people as individuals?

Divisive issues are being used as political weapons by the right and the left. It's not solution oriented and in many ways is making the problem worse.

I found what Whoopi said was deeply offensive to me and my dead ancestors but I completely forgive Whoopi for saying an ignorant comment because she's not purporting to be some fucking expert just sharing her opinion. We have to respect that she has had her own issues and said something that was ignorant because she was not well informed. We need to have the conversation about race without immediately jumping down eachothers throats taking things out of context to paint them as satan.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

*redacted*

Edited February 10, 2022 by Husseinisdoingfine

[vizual]

22 hours ago, Dabidoe said:

@mememe In many ways racism has gotten worse. We have shifted the conversation away from togetherness towards division on both sides of the political spectrum. The vast majority of people are opposed to racism while still endorsing racist beliefs also on both sides.

When I say we need to steer away from the divisve conversation of race I'm not saying ignore it, but rather than just bitch bitch bitch about horrible the world is why not steer people towards the solution which is recognizing and respecting cultures as equals as well as treating people as individuals?

Divisive issues are being used as political weapons by the right and the left. It's not solution oriented and in many ways is making the problem worse.

I found what Whoopi said was deeply offensive to me and my dead ancestors but I completely forgive Whoopi for saying an ignorant comment because she's not purporting to be some fucking expert just sharing her opinion. We have to respect that she has had her own issues and said something that was ignorant because she was not well informed. We need to have the conversation about race without immediately jumping down eachothers throats taking things out of context to paint them as satan.

I don't think racism has gotten worse, I personally think that on a global scale racism is actually reducing as there is more understanding and tolerance for people from different countries, cultures and backgrounds. The reason an increased division might be perceived is that feelings about racism were suppressed and are now bubbling up to the surface. Which results in this explosive debate about racism. 

There have always been dumdums that can't debate with nuance and thoughtfulness. And they will always have a voice in public debate, and they probably should. And in these times it's much easier for dumdums to voice their opinions via social media than ever. And in the same vain, there are so called media outlets that love to exploit the uninformed opinions of the dumdums. 

We have to be mindful that our perception of these huge public debates are also skewed by the media, that have their own agendas in influencing how the debate is being conducted on the big stage.