From Stage Green to Stage Blue: The "New Age" to Jesus Phenomenon

[Koeke]

5 hours ago, Yarco said:

I don't think true Christianity is compatible with modernity

with "true Christianity" do you mean the original culture of Christianity or the Christian teaching that points to the Absolute Truth and other valuable timeless lessons? 

If the former, I'd say we can't rely on a 2000 year old culture to get us through new challenges, so then of course it is not compatible. Meaning and significance is not objectively derived from words and we shouldn't have to fully endorse a valuable resource to use it. We can't exclude LGBTQ people anymore and we shouldn't.

If the latter, then why wouldn't it be compatible with certain parts of modern culture and values and modernity?

Edited February 1, 2022 by Koeke

[Aquarianwolf999]

6 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

Most people give up the search for truth and instead accept the fake answers provided by organized religion. 

Ok, that makes sense. Definitely saw it in my two friends.

[Roy]

I find Spiral Dynamics isn't nearly as effective as a model for individuals as it is for larger collectives but regardless. Nobody is actually fully one stage or the other, an individual is a dynamic mix of the healthy/unhealthy aspects of various stages, that they have either integrated or not.

If you are born into a Green culture and raised with Green values from a young age, without much exposure to the lower stages, there is potential you could have missed out on a proper integration of them.

To provide a stark example, yes Green is overall higher than Orange or Blue, yet there are tons of young Green liberal college students or hippies that can't even hold a job and depend on other people to survive. They ARE Green in a general sense, but only a hollow husk of it - A suit they've stepped into either because they were born into it or because it's who they idealize themselves to be.

Spiral Dynamics isn't linear. Hell it even says it in the name, "dynamic".

What happened with your friends is they probably weren't as developed cognitively or value wise as they seemed, and something they were exposed to triggered them to forced them to regress back into a level their psyche was more comfortable operating. It's a form of ego backlash.

The cart is usually ahead of the horse for most people.

[Bob Seeker]

It is my belief that Spiral stages are not fixed structures in the mind. They are value memes that resonate or do not resonate with individual minds and collective social structures/forces.

to say someone “is” blue can be misleading. No one is blue. Blue is a value meme complex.

many criticisms of SD are born from improper use of the model.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Bob Seeker

[Matt23]

On 1/31/2022 at 5:01 PM, Aquarianwolf999 said:

How is it that people who at one point seemed to be genuinely interested in and practicing self-actualization and spirituality(Stage green or above) suddenly become fundamentalist, born-again Christians(Stage blue)?

Consider that this phenomena might not be able to be fully explained within the SD framework.  As a possibility.  

This may be one of those scenarios that shows the limits of this model.  

Sure, you could still use it to explain it; like saying something about regression or, going a more Integral route, explaining it by saying their spiritual lines of development went from Red (which could plausibly be more interested to new age stuff since they say Red gets along with "Green") to Blue.  

Another developmental theorist I like called bonnitta roy explains a phenomena where people at a certain stage called the conformist rule-role mind can often get confused for higher stages since, as a function of how they often copy w/e group they're in (including the language they use), they can "talk the talk" of, say, Yellow, but aren't actually Yellow (they can't "walk the walk").  I wonder if this could go into helping clear these questions up.  Perhaps you misread what stage they were at from a superficial glance at them (you say they were into new age n stuff), but they may have been at something lower and were just fitting inti the image of what you think "green" is.   I suspect this happens often eith this model and developmental and psychological models in general.  I'm sure I've done it countless times lol.

Dunno.  A thought to consider.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Before you demonize Christianity, the Eastern Orthodox Church has a deep mystical tradition, and so did the Catholics.

The Orthodox call enlightenment: ‘Illumination’. It’s probably the purest form of Christianity.

There is even evidence that Christianity began as a mushroom cult. 

[Aquarianwolf999]

@Husseinisdoingfine Oh I'm not demonizing it. I'm well aware of the nuances within the religion based on my first hand experience talking with folks in multiple denominations. I've had wonderful conversations with my Eastern Orthodox friend and he certainly incorporates aspects of mysticism into his practice. I've also heard them call enlightenment "theosis" something which the Saints are known to have embodied.

[mememe]

16 hours ago, Bob Seeker said:

It is my belief that Spiral stages are not fixed structures in the mind. They are value memes that resonate or do not resonate with individual minds and collective social structures/forces.

to say someone “is” blue can be misleading. No one is blue. Blue is a value meme complex.

many criticisms of SD are born from improper use of the model.

no of course they just make you blue 

a bit like osmosis.

Edited February 2, 2022 by mememe

[DocWatts]

I agree with an earlier comment that Spiral Dynamics is much better used as a sociological model rather than as an individual actualization model (where much better options exist).

I'd be curious what psychological and emotional needs that Christianity fulfills better for these individuals than New Age belief systems. I'm an outsider to Christianity myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if the sense of community from being part of a Church wasn't a big part of it.

Edited February 3, 2022 by DocWatts

[Aquarianwolf999]

@Roy @DocWatts What are some better systems that explain individual psychological development?

[DocWatts]

39 minutes ago, Aquarianwolf999 said:

@Roy @DocWatts What are some better systems that explain individual psychological development?

Susan Cook Greuter's Stages of Ego Development for a hierarchical stage model better suited to individual development. And the Big Five Personality Traits for a model that has the most emperical validation and credibility in the scientific community

Edited February 3, 2022 by DocWatts

[Dino D]

Do you see people who have found God trough Jesus/Christianity, after new age, fall back again to new age or non duality?

It seams to me once you find Jesus... things get better and you stay there...

There is a lot of shifting from new age to Jesus but not from Jesus to new age...

[Ya know]

@Dino D I think new age is too airy fairy without definitive guidance, hence once people dedicate themselves to a true teacher they can make more progress.

[Michal__]

16 hours ago, Dino D said:

Do you see people who have found God trough Jesus/Christianity, after new age, fall back again to new age or non duality?

It seams to me once you find Jesus... things get better and you stay there...

There is a lot of shifting from new age to Jesus but not from Jesus to new age...

Not true. I grew up in a Christian environment and then moved to materialism, new age then had another conservative period and then finally moved to new age again and then past new age into true spirituality (actual contemplative work & self actualization).

[SgtPepper]

The problem is assuming these new agers are stage green. 

I am actually an example of what you are pointing out; although I've never really been a new ager in a common sense, like utilizing crystals or incense. 

I came back to Christianity because I grew up with it, and then by exploring spirituality, I was able to understand Christianity in a deeper way. I now pray to Jesus, read the Bible, but I still do yoga and take psychedelics. Although I think mainstream christianity like evangelical is kind of lame and surface level, but it really depends. I think Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox have stronger mystical traditions/practices.

The whole concept of born-again makes a lot of sense. I felt born-again after doing mushrooms plenty of times. Like peeling back an onion.

From what I read here, some people here have biased and ignorant views on Christianity, but it is what it is. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by SgtPepper

[Michal__]

30 minutes ago, SgtPepper said:

The problem is assuming these new agers are stage green. 

I am actually an example of what you are pointing out; although I've never really been a new ager in a common sense, like utilizing crystals or incense. 

I came back to Christianity because I grew up with it, and then by exploring spirituality, I was able to understand Christianity in a deeper way. I now pray to Jesus, read the Bible, but I still do yoga and take psychedelics. Although I think mainstream christianity like evangelical is kind of lame and surface level, but it really depends. I think Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox have stronger mystical traditions/practices.

The whole concept of born-again makes a lot of sense. I felt born-again after doing mushrooms plenty of times. Like peeling back an onion.

From what I read here, some people here have an extremely biased and ignorant view on Christianity, but it is what it is.

Christian mysticism is as deep as Zen. Just different.

But it's still stage blue. Just like Zen is still stage blue.

Both can lead to awakening but unfortunately exposes you to lots of dogma.

[SgtPepper]

8 hours ago, Michal__ said:

Christian mysticism is as deep as Zen. Just different.

But it's still stage blue. Just like Zen is still stage blue.

Both can lead to awakening but unfortunately exposes you to lots of dogma.

What Dogma don't you like?

Dogma helps create organization and structure which is necessary for an identity and a strong standard to exist. I don't have a problem with it. Most Christians follow the dogma loosely anyways, it's essentially voluntary. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by SgtPepper

[Michal__]

51 minutes ago, SgtPepper said:

What Dogma don't you like?

Dogma helps create organization and structure which is necessary for an identity and a strong standard to exist. I don't have a problem with it. Most Christians follow the dogma loosely anyways, it's essentially voluntary. 

It's nessecary when you haven't evolved much past stage blue. 

Sure, it's an important phase to go through, nothing wrong with it. If you still find it useful, go for it.

[Flyboy]

My personal opinion is they were always stage Blue, but they were "Blue about Green."  This is a common phenomenon for people born into Green who just accept its values in a dogmatic way.  When other values come around, it's just a lateral move that helps their survival or comfort in some way.