Opinions: Provoked or Unprovoked Urine Test for Heavy Metals?

[Matt23]

So, I've heard Leo mention, and I think others, to do a provoked urine test for heavy metals.  

Though, I just came across this article (https://quackwatch.org/related/Tests/urine_toxic/) which says that provoked urine tests mislead people into thinking they're toxic when they aren't since this type of test takes normal levels of heavy metals out of the body in abnormal amounts, thus misleading the diagnosis.  

To be fair, I just glossed over this article as it is quite extensive and lists many sources and studies.  

What ya'll think?

Has anyone tried either of the provoked or/and unprovoked tests?  What was your experience and results?

Cheers

[Matt23]

Also, does anyone know where I can get these tests (preferrably in Canada)?  I tried going to DoctorsData, but they require you to be a doctor to use their services.

[puporing]

@Matt23 I was looking into it a bit, have you tried finding a naturopathic doctor/clinic in your area? (for urine test)

I'm skipping the test part for now and just going to the detox..

Edited January 27, 2022 by puporing

[Michael569]

Quakwatch is highly biased by evidence-based medicine which, as we know, is self-limited in its own biased way and it has a blindspot on its own inadequacies. Over the years I've seen them be incredibly unfair and rough in pissing over people who are offering genuine value to the world just because they do not back every statement they make by research. At the same time they do good work picking up many "rotten eggs" in the basket as the world of health is filled with charlatans and snake oil salesmen. 

The reason there are so many unknown variables is that environmental medicine is a new field that is still in diapers. We don't have reliable tests, reliable assessment methods or reliable treatments. We don't have a lot of human data and it is INCREDIBLY hard to study this because same as cancer for ethical reasons you can't give people toxicity by injecting them experimentally with bunch of mercury in a lab and then try to detox them experimentally or see if they pee more out if we give them DMSA. We ca do this with rats but rats are not humans.

SO we only have cohorts of people who we think are sick but we don't even know that for sure because we don't have reliable testing of brain testing and brain toxicity. So we play guessing games based on symptomology, self-observation & anecdotal reports. 

Yes, chelation is the best we have (at the moment) but that does not make it the most effective thing there is....it's just that "best we have for now" or should we say "most evidence-based thing we have" the two aren't necessarily the same thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2SPeJ740z4  Consider watching this. My buddy recommended me watching this. Dr Pizzorno is one of the leading authorities in the world on Environmental Medicine and they talk a lot about chelation etc. I found this a nice summary of the topic. 

Soz, I know this does not answer the provoked urine question. No idea about that one but thought I'd add this comment for some perspective. 

All the best on your detox journey!

[Matt23]

22 hours ago, puporing said:

I'm skipping the test part for now and just going to the detox..

Oooo... straight to it eh?  Gutsy  

@Michael569 Cheers.  I'll give that a watch sometime.  And ya, that issue in testing people seems like a big hurdle.  Part of me thinks the science peeps can get overly attached to studies and double blind, placebo controls n data and "verification".  But I also see the value in getting that info if you can forsure.  But sometimes you just gotta try shit out yourself and rely on what you have and see if it works.  I think a lot can be said for just experimenting and watching what happens.  Obviously never 100% accurate in knowing what happened.  But ya, do the best you can with what you have; better perhaps than doing nothing.  Perhaps.  

[Matt23]

@Michael569 Interesting interview.  

This quote stuck out to me:  "Human bodies are more adaptable to nutrient deficient environments rather than toxic environments.  Especially considering a lot of the chemicals and metals in our environments now weren't there for most of human history." (paraphrasing).   

Makes sense to me. 

Interesting to hear both of them quite strongly and confidently, without a doubt seeming, want naturopathic doctors to be the absolute front-line doctors that the public sees regularly (and then having specialist doctors if needed).  

Edited January 28, 2022 by Matt23

[puporing]

@Matt23 Haha yeah, I just assume I'm at least a bit toxic.. and unexplainable symptoms. 

[Michael569]

7 hours ago, Matt23 said:

Interesting to hear both of them quite strongly and confidently, without a doubt seeming, want naturopathic doctors to be the absolute front-line doctors that the public sees regularl

I'd like to believe that some sort of Integrative medicine is a future of the public health care but tbh don't see that happening anytime soon. Big Pharma spends a lot of $$$ to maintain status quo 

[PurpleTree]

On 27.1.2022 at 6:36 AM, puporing said:

 

I'm skipping the test part for now and just going to the detox..

i think me too.

i'll just do a round of dmsa chelation and see how it makes me feel.

[Matt23]

4 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

i think me too.

i'll just do a round of dmsa chelation and see how it makes me feel.

Sounds good.

Part of me thinks like ya, just do it and see how it feels.

But i also think ljke, if i can find a test soonish then I'll do that since i'd like to do it "properly" so i can more accurately know how things are moving.  Have more or less confidence in the process.   Testing could also help in solving issues when chelating.  Like you could test if you start to feel nothing, or if you get really bad symptoms, you could do a reference test and see what that says to inform further action. 

Testing could also help since you may not feel effects yet you could still be doing good in chelating metals.  

But i get just going ahead and doing it as well to see how it feels.

Good luck.  Update us on what happens.

[puporing]

@Matt23 Yes ideally, if the tests were as accessible as in the US I would totally want to get the data and do the before and after.. but here in Canada I haven't found something so accessible. I found a naturopathic clinic that might do the test but they make you jump through a bunch of hoops like having consultations with the doc first...blah blah. I'm just a bit over seeing doctors for this right now. I've been having unexplainable symptoms and going to docs for a couple years with no answers.. The exhaustion is real! I would love to know if you find a good accessible source for testing, please share it with the Canadian folks. For now journalling and observing will do.

Edited January 28, 2022 by puporing

[PurpleTree]

edit: whatevs

Edited January 30, 2022 by PurpleTree

[Matt23]

On 1/28/2022 at 10:23 AM, puporing said:

@Matt23 Yes ideally, if the tests were as accessible as in the US I would totally want to get the data and do the before and after.. but here in Canada I haven't found something so accessible. I found a naturopathic clinic that might do the test but they make you jump through a bunch of hoops like having consultations with the doc first...blah blah. I'm just a bit over seeing doctors for this right now. I've been having unexplainable symptoms and going to docs for a couple years with no answers.. The exhaustion is real! I would love to know if you find a good accessible source for testing, please share it with the Canadian folks. For now journalling and observing will do.

Ya.  Will do if i find one.

There was a site online i saw which sold doctors data heavy metal test kits... it didnt go into a lot of detail about its specs tho... so im not totally trustworthy of it.

Sounds fair in your case.  I may do similarly as im in canada as well, so hearing another person who's fed up with finding a test here makes me lean more towards skipping it for now.

 

[Average Investor]

My main issues with it is the safety and the relevance of the information. No doubt we all have some toxic metals in us. The problem is that a test like this is not really going to show you how much is in the organs and stored up. Rather it will show you how much comes out if you take a substance that increases the amount you expel. 

There is not really a threshold that you are looking for. The test you would be doing would likely compare you to people who are not taking a provoked pee test, so of course the levels would be much lower. Even comparing it to your own, the only information would be that you can chelate. It might also help to identify metals that are higher than others, but you still would not know how much is stored. 

DMSA is quite safe from what I have looked at. However, rarely some are allergic, so putting a lot into you at once would not be a good idea without testing smaller amounts. If someone is super toxic it could cause issues as well. 

 

[Matt23]

On 1/28/2022 at 10:23 AM, puporing said:

I would love to know if you find a good accessible source for testing, please share it with the Canadian folks

https://www.walkinlab.com/products/view/dd-toxic-metals-urine-test-kit-doctor-s-data  This might work...  Again, it doesn't show much detail about what's included in the test, which makes me a little suspicious.  But ya, maybe worth a try.  

12 minutes ago, Droo_ said:

I think the main assumption of those advocating for a provoked urine test is that no level of heavy metals is safe in the body. I personally didn't do a test because when I take ALA and DMSA I notice a very clear difference in my consciousness due to chelating. I think this is the easiest way to tell if you are toxic or not, and it's the way Andy Cutler recommends in his book.

Interesting.  I'll consider this and maybe just do a round or two to see how it goes.  

Cheers

[puporing]

@Matt23 thanks for the share! Though it seems to be US address only

On 2022-02-01 at 8:51 PM, Droo_ said:

I personally didn't do a test because when I take ALA and DMSA I notice a very clear difference in my consciousness due to chelating.

Yes I noticed that too after 1st round, and a very noticeable “feeling unwell” or hit hard by a train the day and after I stopped the round. 

[Matt23]

21 hours ago, puporing said:

, and a very noticeable “feeling unwell” or hit hard by a train the day and after I stopped the round. 

Hmmm...  Any thoughts on what it could be?

[puporing]

41 minutes ago, Matt23 said:

Hmmm...  Any thoughts on what it could be?

The Andy Cutler book does say the first day after chelation it's normal to feel tired/cranky/depressed lol. Makes sense coz you have freed up some of those heavy metals and stopping the round (as opposed to getting it out of your body). But if the symptoms are still strong after one day it means the dosage is too high for you and you should prob try lowering the next round. So I think I was at about the right dosage..

Edited February 4, 2022 by puporing

[Matt23]

What dose were you at?

Did it significantly disrupt your abilities to do normal things like work, remembering stuff, etc.?

[puporing]

@Matt23 I was/am currently on 50mg of DMSA and 25mg of ALA. The effect was tolerable for me but I was feeling pretty tired/brain foggy the day after stopping, not so much memory wise. Might help if you time it so that your first round ends on an off day where you don't need to do anything intense/cognitively taxing I would suggest. I think maybe I started a bit high on DMSA but so far okay. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by puporing