Why I Think Most People Should Give Up On Enlightenment. For Now!

[Aware]

@Dodoster

 

The point is very clear,  a list, and clear answers. And there isn't any clear answer to be found, and any reader can see that.

And that is the conclusion.

 

I have said that I would critically examen the post on the answers given on such questions. But you did not give them. Well after some pointers to get you there, it is now up to yourself to deal with it. I am not further examen them, I see you clearly don't know the answers on such questions.

And if you disagree, that can be so. I examined your answers, not the sense of self behind it.

I thank you for your attempt to answer the list of questions I presented. But I conclude that you just don't know the answers to such questions, based on the answers you have been giving. And good luck with further practicing, and I definitely advice to question deeply before answering such questions, asking the right questions, lead eventually to knowledge after all!

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Aware

[Dodo]

35 minutes ago, Aware said:

@Dodoster

 

The point is very clear,  a list, and clear answers. And there isn't any clear answer to be found, and any reader can see that.

And that is the conclusion.

 

I have said that I would critically examen the post on the answers given on such questions. But you did not give them. Well after some pointers to get you there, it is now up to yourself to deal with it. I am not further examen them, I see you clearly don't know the answers on such questions.

And if you disagree, that can be so. I examined your answers, not the sense of self behind it.

I thank you for your attempt to answer the list of questions I presented. But I conclude that you just don't know the answers to such questions, based on the answers you have been giving. And good luck with further practicing, and I definitely advice to question deeply before answering such questions, asking the right questions, lead eventually to knowledge after all!

 

Thanks, good luck in life to you too

[ajasatya]

if you're free of attachment;
if you're ready to live without suffering nor causing suffering;
if you can appreciate life as it is and stop demanding/expecting things from people around you;

there's no need to

• question/test anyone
• answer anything
• be approved by anyone
• compare yourself or others

there's no need to help who doesn't ask for it.
there's no need to tell someone that he/she needs help.
the one who points flaws on others is the biggest fool in the scene.

any desire for knowledge/wisdom unfolds spontaneously and trying to make it grow on someone else looks very very silly. be happy and content instead.

[Dodo]

7 hours ago, ajasatya said:

if you're free of attachment;
if you're ready to live without suffering nor causing suffering;
if you can appreciate life as it is and stop demanding/expecting things from people around you;

there's no need to

• question/test anyone
• answer anything
• be approved by anyone
• compare yourself or others

there's no need to help who doesn't ask for it.
there's no need to tell someone that he/she needs help.
the one who points flaws on others is the biggest fool in the scene.

any desire for knowledge/wisdom unfolds spontaneously and trying to make it grow on someone else looks very very silly. be happy and content instead.

Agreed, but we gotta take into consideration the conditioning and how expression is linked to that. Its a gradual process.

Also the need might not be there to do such things,  but that doesnt mean they should not happen.

Just like you dont have need for that ice-cream, it doesnt mean it can't be eaten.

Aware has stated to me that his test is a game, and I played - it was an experience

Otherwise fully agree 

Ps: There is such a thing as freedom of speech and i believe it to be a very important thing for humanity. Sticks and stones might break me, but words.. etc - harmless.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Dodoster

[ajasatya]

@Dodoster very well put. being playful with words with sincerity and without turning it into a personal game is healthy.

[Deep]

On 1/9/2017 at 7:12 AM, Martin123 said:

Unhealthy ego - imagine it as it a sphere being covered with glue. It rolls through life and gets attached to various things, beliefs, ideologies, and people. You let go of one part, but because it has an extremely sticky surface, it immediately replaces one attachment with another one. Not only that, but letting go and detaching yourself will feel infinitely more painful.

Healthy ego - imagine it as a solid heavy sphere ROLLING itself through life. Busting through obstacles, and attaching itself to things it chooses to, but only temporarily, without changing the core (sphere). Now it can often times roll against the current of life, that however is another story =D. 

I agree with this. Although I would use the word confidence instead of ego. It's easier for people who have strong sense of self and know who they are. 

[SBB4746]

@Martin123 Are you enlightened? If your not, then why do you think your ideas about it are right? What if there's no correct way of becoming enlightened? What if this whole thread is just another way to mentally masturbate and serves no purpose what so ever? 

[Martin123]

@SBB4746 Does your answer serve any purpose what so ever?

[Martin123]

@SBB4746 I can only offer what I see, never less, never more. 
Even if I were enlightened, I would be offering what  I see.
I see this.
I see traps, delusion, confusion, escape, suffering and irresponsibility.
So I offer my views.
take it or leave it.

[Martin123]

26 minutes ago, SBB4746 said:

@Martin123 Are you enlightened? If your not, then why do you think your ideas about it are right? What if there's no correct way of becoming enlightened? What if this whole thread is just another way to mentally masturbate and serves no purpose what so ever? 

Also no, the thread doesn't serve any purpose at all. I just wrote it on a whim. It exploded and got amusing.

[Martin123]

Clarification, something I feel hasn't been quite understood in the post.

the For now! part in the title was quite important.

Make enlightenment your long-term goal.
Make shadow-work your short-term goal.
In my view shadow-work is the beginning of the path. Many people opposed to me that you can be on the path even when your ego is weak, yes but the ego would be healed in the process. Healed though to some extent! Not necessarily fully (purified).
But let's be honest, if you're suicidal, you better drop the suicidal part of yours first, then you wanna see the truth.
The Eckhart Tolle type of enlightenment happened in the extreme suffering of ego.
Once you decide for the path, you gradually decrease your suffering.  Making it very unlikely for the ego to just pop out of a sudden (like with Tolle).

[Dodo]

29 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

Clarification, something I feel hasn't been quite understood in the post.

the For now! part in the title was quite important.

Make enlightenment your long-term goal.
Make shadow-work your short-term goal.
In my view shadow-work is the beginning of the path. Many people opposed to me that you can be on the path even when your ego is weak, yes but the ego would be healed in the process. Healed though to some extent! Not necessarily fully (purified).
But let's be honest, if you're suicidal, you better drop the suicidal part of yours first, then you wanna see the truth.
The Eckhart Tolle type of enlightenment happened in the extreme suffering of ego.
Once you decide for the path, you gradually decrease your suffering.  Making it very unlikely for the ego to just pop out of a sudden (like with Tolle).

Tolle is a very wise teacher. My observations are that you and me are not ripe to talk about enlightenment. We must listen to experienced beings of the likes of Ekhart, Mooji and so on.

We do look silly, I'm sure

[Hunter Arrington]

@Dodoster

http://iamspirituality.com/top-10-ways-to-achieve-spiritual-enlightenment/

Found this the other day. What do you think? 

[Thomas Taschler]

I think enlightenment is a very long journey.

I just needed nearly 1 year to recalibrate, to stop and come back to actualized.org  

I think it's like the spiral dynamics, you need to take in and process everything before step X + step X to get to step Y.
It takes time (a lot).

[Aware]

19 hours ago, ajasatya said:

@Dodoster very well put. being playful with words with sincerity and without turning it into a personal game is healthy.

@Dodoster

 

If this is however the case somehow, if I did give that expression, than this is not my intent readers.

I will therefor add something to all of that.

A whole big list of critical questions... By which I would criticize. I might not have added, that the most funny thing about it, is that I don't know the answers either, and I do know that very well from my part when someone else tries to answer them. It does make me, just that, a conscious fool where it looks, and even might seem to others, that I do know the answers, while this isn't the case at all!

Therefor I stated: Its a game: I will criticize, and dodster you took it. Thats all, (and you did well). (however no one just asked: What about you Aware, do you know the answer, and let me ask in return?)

However if feelings are hurt, then this is not my intent, let that be clear.

 

@ajasatya

We often play this game at home, when we truly are questioning and one thinks to have the answers, one takes the position of not knowing (which one is already in naturally), the other takes the position of thinking one knows, and the one thinking he knows, is the one criticized statement by statement on what he states, until finally the end statement follows naturally (or is inevitable, but not mentioned): I don't know. I just think I know, however: What do we know, and can we know?
From here wisdom starts.

dodoster and I spoke already in private, that it is indeed just a game. And I do think it is very healthy, due to that many try to escape the sense of self, while such a game, indeed boils up exactly to learn to question it until both realize its a game of pretending, which has not been spoken out here, but in private, as we choose so. And even so that it seems that I do know the answer therefor criticizing however, I say, that is the game, because I don't know the answers either, it only seems so!

Edited January 12, 2017 by Aware

[Guest Annetta]

@Martin123 Yeah, Tolle got lucky.   Here's something I'm watching atm, it's really good if yall are interested.

 

[esper]

Thanks @Martin123 for starting this thread. You verbalized the same intuition I have had.

While it's true that everyone's situation is different, so perhaps some people with "weak egos" would be best served by going right for enlightenment, I think a lot of them (most?) will end up shooting themselves in the foot by doing so. It's just too big of a goal to take on all at once. Baby steps. Best not to make plans for how to colonize Mars while your current house is on fire.

The temptation, I think, comes from enlightenment being held out as the highest goal one could possibly aspire for. That being the case, it only seems natural to make that the sole focus of your efforts. I can speak only for myself here, but I feel like I was tempted to do just that because deep down I lacked faith that I could achieve positive results with any kind of personal development goal. So, the twisted logic says, why not just go for the most important goal, in the off chance that it does work out?

The answer, of course, is that you're basically gambling, when you could turn it into a game of skill by undoing limiting beliefs like "I am incapable of getting what I want." Whether it's that belief, a slew of others ones, or something else entirely, I think the point is that if you get some wins under your belt and lay the foundation, there's nothing wrong with making enlightenment your goal 5 years from now instead of right now. Don't they always say that to reach your destination, you have to know both where you want to go and where you're starting from? So if you are in denial about where you're starting from and just say "the hell with it, I'm going!", you're not exactly setting yourself up for success.

[Dodo]

21 minutes ago, esper said:

Thanks @Martin123 for starting this thread. You verbalized the same intuition I have had.

While it's true that everyone's situation is different, so perhaps some people with "weak egos" would be best served by going right for enlightenment, I think a lot of them (most?) will end up shooting themselves in the foot by doing so. It's just too big of a goal to take on all at once. Baby steps. Best not to make plans for how to colonize Mars while your current house is on fire.

The temptation, I think, comes from enlightenment being held out as the highest goal one could possibly aspire for. That being the case, it only seems natural to make that the sole focus of your efforts. I can speak only for myself here, but I feel like I was tempted to do just that because deep down I lacked faith that I could achieve positive results with any kind of personal development goal. So, the twisted logic says, why not just go for the most important goal, in the off chance that it does work out?

The answer, of course, is that you're basically gambling, when you could turn it into a game of skill by undoing limiting beliefs like "I am incapable of getting what I want." Whether it's that belief, a slew of others ones, or something else entirely, I think the point is that if you get some wins under your belt and lay the foundation, there's nothing wrong with making enlightenment your goal 5 years from now instead of right now. Don't they always say that to reach your destination, you have to know both where you want to go and where you're starting from? So if you are in denial about where you're starting from and just say "the hell with it, I'm going!", you're not exactly setting yourself up for success.

Whether you are right or wrong is based on

One: What you mean by enlightenment 

Two: Whether it can be attained by choice and effort or by surrender and letting go.

Maybe the very turning away from it of fear of failure and "gambling"  is exactly karma in action making you think you need to suffer some more before attaining what you already are.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Dodoster

[Martin123]

@Dodoster duuuuuude. Like. Seriously stahp.
You intellectualize enlightenment and then preach it.
Justh...chill... do your self-enquiry... see where it takes you... talk to me in a year.

[Martin123]

25 minutes ago, esper said:

Thanks @Martin123 for starting this thread. You verbalized the same intuition I have had.

While it's true that everyone's situation is different, so perhaps some people with "weak egos" would be best served by going right for enlightenment, I think a lot of them (most?) will end up shooting themselves in the foot by doing so. It's just too big of a goal to take on all at once. Baby steps. Best not to make plans for how to colonize Mars while your current house is on fire.

The temptation, I think, comes from enlightenment being held out as the highest goal one could possibly aspire for. That being the case, it only seems natural to make that the sole focus of your efforts. I can speak only for myself here, but I feel like I was tempted to do just that because deep down I lacked faith that I could achieve positive results with any kind of personal development goal. So, the twisted logic says, why not just go for the most important goal, in the off chance that it does work out?

The answer, of course, is that you're basically gambling, when you could turn it into a game of skill by undoing limiting beliefs like "I am incapable of getting what I want." Whether it's that belief, a slew of others ones, or something else entirely, I think the point is that if you get some wins under your belt and lay the foundation, there's nothing wrong with making enlightenment your goal 5 years from now instead of right now. Don't they always say that to reach your destination, you have to know both where you want to go and where you're starting from? So if you are in denial about where you're starting from and just say "the hell with it, I'm going!", you're not exactly setting yourself up for success.

Again, agree over all, however...
The "healing of the ego" aka building a new house, since the last one was on fire, IS part of the path if you are walking int correctly.
but egos like to skip this part And they go like. K.. Enlighttenment!! OH I SOO KNOW WHAT IT IS!! IMA GET IT @Dodoster (not pointing any fingers but... oops I am)
But no... you know shit, you know nothing, you just switched one dysfunctional belief system, replaced it with deluded spiritual beliefs, and never dealt with the core of your wounded ego.