Why I Think Most People Should Give Up On Enlightenment. For Now!

[eskwire]

@Martin123 RIGHT?! It's hard for me to take life in steps because I want to make huge JUMPS...but, I'm old enough now to see that doesn't always work out so well.

When you push yourself to jump off the high dive when you can barely dog paddle, you may give up on swimming altogether.  

Not sure why people are shoving Enlightenment work down your throat on this thread. #dogma

[Martin123]

@eskwire OH because the thread is purposefully provoking spiritual egos. 

[Dodo]

45 minutes ago, eskwire said:

@Martin123 RIGHT?! It's hard for me to take life in steps because I want to make huge JUMPS...but, I'm old enough now to see that doesn't always work out so well.

When you push yourself to jump off the high dive when you can barely dog paddle, you may give up on swimming altogether.  

Not sure why people are shoving Enlightenment work down your throat on this thread. #dogma

Enlightenment is hard only because of the belief. This is the true dogma and is sad that minds will never let go of the idea its super hard.

If You expect enlightenment to mean you are superhuman you will most likely never get there. Its for absolutely everyone. But here comes the problem with words. Maybe what you mean by enlightenment is different than my definition 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Dodoster

[Martin123]

@Dodoster You know youre talking to urself right?  

[Dodo]

1 minute ago, Martin123 said:

@Dodoster You know youre talking to urself right?  

Yeah as is everyone else. This is the game hellooo?

[Martin123]

U didn't get it. Nevermind  
@Dodoster

[Dodo]

What I mean by enlightenment is Buddha's definition - end of suffering. The knowledge needed is out there and we have the opportunity to get guided there by thousands of years of work cummulated up to this moment, made by the wisest of the wise ti aid us. Ofcourse its easy.

[Martin123]

@Dodoster You Still don't get it =D.

[Leo Gura]

There are landmines everywhere in this work.

If one teaches: "Only pursue enlightenment, drop everything else." Many people will get lost, because many people are not ready for that.

If one teaches: "Heal yourself. Then pursue enlightenment." Many people will get lost, because most people will get distracted and never put in the necessary focus to attain enlightenment.

If one teaches: "You are already enlightened." Many people will get lost, because they will not do any work.

If one teaches: "You are not enlightened. Go pursue enlightenment." Many people will get lost in seeking.

No teaching is fool-proof. And the most advanced teachings especially so.

All personal development work is filled with traps. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. If there were, it probably would have been found by now and there wouldn't be as much diversity as we find within the fields of personal and spiritual development.

When one ignores this context, it leads to even more traps, because then one can take anyone who misuses a teaching as evidence of the teaching's failure. This is how nonduality wars get started. I see one person misuse your teaching and then condemn your teaching for it. When in fact, it's virtually impossible not to misuse these teachings, because the nature of the thing being taught is so tricky.

So there needs to be latitude in your assessment of teachings, otherwise you will become an ideologue. And that is just one more landmine in this work.

Try to see this whole issue from a holistic, meta-perspective: there are billions of unconscious people in the world, and most of them are not going to successfully navigate any teaching. So expect some casualties, delusion, failure, and collateral damage as people strive to become conscious.

How else could it be?

The only solution to unconsciousness is consciousness. All teachings and techniques are ultimately mechanical. It's the student that really has to do the heavy lifting. He must supply the consciousness.

[Martin123]

@Leo Gura Thanks senpai, I like the answer. 
Although I have seen a pattern on this forum of many people who have deeper emotional issues starting enlightenment work. That is a waste of their time, and I do think it will be helpful if more awareness about it is spread.

[Leo Gura]

@Martin123 Don't be so sure about that. Ekhart Tolle or Byron Katie are great examples of people who had DEEP emotional issues and what worked best for them was enlightenment.

Of course that doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

I generally agree that people with weak or wounded egos will not be able to attain enlightenment simply because they haven't learned to function in the everyday world. Which is why I teach far more than enlightenment. Most of the world is not ready for enlightenment. They have to work up to it.

Of course, this shouldn't stop anyone who seriously wants to pursue enlightenment. It certainly can be done by people with deep emotional issues.

This is a very personal decision. And one has to be very strategic about deciding which aspects of growth to pursue when. Improperly planning out your development can lead to quick failure. Which is why personal coaching can be so helpful. It customizes personal development to the individual's needs.

One of the huge limitations of shooting self-help videos is that I cannot customize a video to everyone's needs. I have to aim at an average.

[Martin123]

@Leo Gura Oo didn't know Byron Katie was enlightened. I thought she was just a shadow-work teacher. Interesting. 

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I generally agree that people with weak or wounded egos will not be able to attain enlightenment simply because they haven't learned to function in the everyday world. Which is why I teach far more than enlightenment. Most of the world is not ready for enlightenment. They have to work up to it.

Yeah I kinda know you do, but for some reason I feel like in the actualized.org community it isn't agreed upon collectively and many people do damage.
Happens there is a person genuinely suffering and someone comes up like "yo there's not the one who's suffering it's an illusion". That can be hurtful. 

[Leo Gura]

@Martin123 Yes, there can be damage, which is why I'm trying to make my videos more nuanced and careful. This work really requires great nuance to minimize all sorts of collateral damage.

But even as I do that, there will still be many people who miss the nuances in what is said.

I see people missing very obvious warnings that I give about all sorts of topics, from enlightenment to psychedelics. It just cannot be helped at some level, because this is core of what growth is about. Growth is difficult because people don't even know how to listen or properly interpret what is taught. They like to project or jump to radical conclusions.

And of course I'm always learning how to teach better.

But even given all that, the effect of such teaching is overwhelmingly positive. My philosophy is that business-as-usual is the most dangerous strategy. Not taking any kind of action is the most dangerous action. The world needs to be told to grow up, and then all of us must shoulder the burden of the growing pains that result.

[WelcometoReality]

@Martin123 The way i see it is that there are three types of awakenings. And all awakenings that are in between.

A deep awakening. In this one the ego won't matter, it will mostly fall of without effort.

A shallow awakening. Here ego will matter because one still have to unhook alot of attachments and a healthy ego will suffer less.

A gradual awakening. This is without any awakening experiences. It will sort of sneak up on you and one day you realize that you lost yourself on the way. No suffering is created by the ego from this type of awakening so healthy and unhealthy ego won't matter.

To clarify, healthy-unhealthy ego is not black and white but a gray scale. The  different types of awakenings are not black and white but a gray scale.

You can't choose which type of awakening you will get so work on your ego. It won't hurt and it will maybe make the awakening process easier. To seek enlightenment before one has a healthy ego? That is for each one to decide, there probably isn't a general rule.

[Martin123]

@Leo Gura Would you please elaborate on the therapeutic effects of self-enquiry? When is it damaging, or is it ever, if done well?

[eskwire]

@Dodoster It's not hard to walk off the high dive.  It's just walking. But it is inappropriate if you can't swim. 

[Aware]

@Martin123

 

There is not a single teaching to be found, that should not be led go of in the end when progressing.

All teachings are damaging due to that. However, the compensation is that one can stop his own further damaging, that would continue if one does not pursue a healthy goal such as enlightenment.

There is no such thing as, someone is ready for enlightenment or not. Any being is ready for enlightenment or the pursue of it. Because no teaching of enlightenment is to actually reach the enlightenment as how one would love to see it happening. People love to see it as some kind of object that is next to other objects standing in a supermarket. However, some do suffer to little, and others do suffer to much, when it comes to their interest when it comes to pursuing such goals. Of course when not enlightened, its of course the teaching that is to blame, the little puppet isn't satisfied with the results. But this has more to do with picking a wrong teacher that does not live up to his teachings, but did choose this teacher because one thought that this person would be fitting in ones own little world of perception, or even thinks one deserves such a teacher.

Teachings, are not there to actually teach someone, although a teaching can be seen as a teacher, it is in fact a big aggregate, they just make someone think deeper, question on a more profound level, that leads the person to wonder again. The things such belief systems one holds so dear, are questioned rather they are actually well thought out, or rather one just blindly believed it. Such thinking is damaging, rather healing seen from the perspective when one can let go of it and prevents long term damage which happens if one would not think about it and rather stays with not well thought out belief systems.

For example: One could right now follow this question, and is already thinking more deeply when thinking about the following question:

Ever thought of the fact rather there was ever one in history ever enlightened, or rather that someone ever will get enlightened?

 

Now of course, who knows, right?

 

Now of course we could go deeper, and truly state: Teachings of enlightenment, Dharma, is pure science. No one who ever got enlightened, ever returned unenlightened. I can't recall one example.

So for those readers who truly think they can first awaken, then do self improvement, are really deluded up side down thinking that they can have it both ways, fooling themselves these things differ like anything else, missing their aim, blindly missing where such thoughts arose. While it is just one way all the time, which is of course yourself that must become the way, there are no thousands upon thousands of minds that you must work with, its your own damn mind to work with that thinks there are many paths, many teachings, many awakenings many this that, ..... are you finished?

 When personhood ends, Buddhahood is.

And I must still see a single enlightened one becoming unenlightened.

 

Thank you Martin123 for bringing this article up. Yes, one must indeed do what one finds suiting first. Becoming a right student first, may it be called self improvement or what else, before one truly gets into a real life set goal of enlightenment... And this is of course due to when one awakens to the vision of Dharma, one cannot return, will move on and on, until one finally became whole again. And silly bodies are not blocking this, because you are not your damn body... Nor the idea of body, Awareness was long before, and long after. When one awakens to the Dharma, the vision of it, one will move on from body to body if needed, until what is done, is done. I repeat therefor:

 

 When personhood ends, Buddhahood is.

And I must still see a single enlightened one becoming unenlightened.

 

 

 

[Martin123]

@Aware Wow. Thank you for your input.
I can't help it but I feel kindness behind all of your posts. Thanks for uplifting this thread, your post touched me.

[Dodo]

2 hours ago, eskwire said:

@Dodoster It's not hard to walk off the high dive.  It's just walking. But it is inappropriate if you can't swim. 

But both the easy walking and falling 1000 feet down into a deep ocean are experiences - what we are after here is the only thing which is not experience and is everywhere no matter what. So it is neither the walk, nor the high dive, it's behind both, so it can be accessed from deep or shallow, it's your choice when and where (or is it).

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Martin123 said:

@Leo Gura Would you please elaborate on the therapeutic effects of self-enquiry? When is it damaging, or is it ever, if done well?

Self-inquiry dissolves illusory concepts about reality and gets one ever-closer to an unmediated, non-conceptual experience of reality.

If you're very attached to your illusory reality -- the entire social Matrix, for example -- you may not like the feeling of deconstructing it. You may experience emotional upheavals. You may overreact to certain revelations. You may misinterpret certain revelations. You may misuse certain revelations by being a dick to others. Etc.

Healing or therapy occurs as you shed illusory notions about reality.

Self-inquiry will raise your awareness A LOT. That's generally a very good thing, but like anything, it can be twisted and abused by the ego.