Why I Think Most People Should Give Up On Enlightenment. For Now!

[Martin123]

4 minutes ago, Dodoster said:

Im not disagreeing as to piss on your idea, i disagree with the intention to help you see the simplest truth, which will quickly change your idea of enlightenment.

As someone said here already, enlightenment is not the raising of awareness,  its the first thing before you start raising awareness. Its like realising the number 0, on which now you can start building. Everything becomes a game, even neurosis. You can observe it, it's not you. Now you can drop it.

I said that. 
Great. Now did I ask for help? Nope. Thanks man though appreciate it! x)

[Martin123]

@Wormon Blatburm Yes Yes yes. It is an avoidable trap. That is the sole purpose of my point! Thanks! :-).

[ajasatya]

no teaching works for everyone. and the teaching that works for you will not work forever.

i am going to explain this in the framework of zen.

a teacher that delivers the teaching of "give up on enlightenment" has to be very careful. at this point, the student has already detached himself from the usual drama of life. he doesn't suffer from lack of confidence, motivation, addictions, fear etc because his pillar is his practice. his mind is steady. concentration is his codename. he's turned all of his life into a zen practice, but he is doing it in order to be enlightenment someday. he still has that expectation for he's not free yet. he's waiting for some event, some "boom" experience so he can say "ok, that was it". but it doesn't work that way.

the teacher, noticing those symptoms, has to guide the student to be free from that desire as well. the student, then, needs to let go of his last ego driven motivation for practice. it's usually some deep radical shift because he had transformed his life in a pursue for enlightenment. the student has to practice for no particular reason. freedom lies on living for no particular reason. a transcended ego doesn't suffer from expectation nor regret for he's completely free from craving and ideology.

most people here, though, are afraid of doing the real work. they attach to points of view and prefer the safety of their old lifestyle. deep inside they're like scared kittens and do not qualify for this kind of thing.

[Martin123]

2 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

most people here, though, are afraid of doing the real work. they attach to points of view and prefer the safety of their old lifestyle. deep inside they're like scared kittens and do not qualify for this kind of thing.

I love kittens!
Exactly! You need to nourish the kitten first, feed it a bit, give it some good lovin, and then in a few-years, dive into the true nature of reality, when it is no longer a kitten, but a strong cat that is ready to roll.

[Dodo]

19 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

I love kittens!
Exactly! You need to nourish the kitten first, feed it a bit, give it some good lovin, and then in a few-years, dive into the true nature of reality, when it is no longer a kitten, but a strong cat that is ready to roll.

For the kitten to become a dragon only the realisation that it is not a kitten is needed. No time required. Purification comes after, if this realisation of no self is nourished. Give love to nothingness/conciousness , not to the false ego you are trying to transcend. This will get you deeper in the web of it and then you'll just have to jump down from higher up.

Also dont underestimate the kitten,  it can grow perfectly fine without you, because it is already doing it. We ain't doing anything,  its all the kitten. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Dodoster

[Martin123]

@Dodoster 

Traits of emotionally healed ego

- present to the moment

- emotionally stable

- total acceptance of oneself

 

HOW THE FUCK IS ENLIGHTENMENT WORK HARDER FROM THAT?? ??

[Dodo]

14 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

@Dodoster 

Traits of emotionally healed ego

- present to the moment

- emotionally stable

- total acceptance of oneself

 

HOW THE FUCK IS ENLIGHTENMENT WORK HARDER FROM THAT?? ??

This is purified ego, still illusion. But I agree, continuous unbroken peace of mind due to the deepest and simplest understanding (Enlightenment)  eventually lead to the outcomes you specified. One can struggle to achieve them or let go to the truth that is already here now. 

You really need self enquiry its the most important to get the self enquiry realisations and to be able to nourish them and let your ego remember it is unreal.

Thats one of the ways to permanently detatch from it i guess, and only when you detach from it comes the true peace of mind which allows that ego to transform and purify by the will of God.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Dodoster

[Mattylonglegs]

Reading through this topic I'd just say there's absolutely no problem with doing both personal development, growing of a healthy ego, and healing with Enlightment work. They're two sides of the same coin. Personally I was super depressed before I came across Leo. Obviously my ego and emotions were all out of whack. When I started watching Leo and getting into personal development I watched both his more pragmatic episodes about confidence for example and I also watched his videos on radical open-mindedness and enlightenment. You certainly can wait to do self-inquiry but like @electroBeam you kinda are stabbing around in the dark.

Personal development and self-inquiry work beautifully together to give you important insights about yourself, human nature, and reality on many different levels. I've found serious meditation, self-inquiry and enlightenment work really give you a very deep grasping of personal development concepts, philosophy and teachers like Leo and other Masters lessons. So when you say your horrified about your friend admitting hes envious of people there's really no reason to be because you are essentially at the very deepest level one and you have just as much capability to be envious as he is.  Instead of being horrified you could try understanding and acceptance. Leo's video this week talks about a phenomenal principle of putting yourself in the other persons's shoes, contemplating their perspective and searching yourself for the very same emotion the person you're talking to is displaying to have greater understanding.

Haha I hope this wasn't too preachy or anything and that you find it useful. 

Good luck in all your endeavors friend!

[Martin123]

38 minutes ago, Mattylonglegs said:

Reading through this topic I'd just say there's absolutely no problem with doing both personal development, growing of a healthy ego, and healing with Enlightment work. They're two sides of the same coin. Personally I was super depressed before I came across Leo. Obviously my ego and emotions were all out of whack. When I started watching Leo and getting into personal development I watched both his more pragmatic episodes about confidence for example and I also watched his videos on radical open-mindedness and enlightenment. You certainly can wait to do self-inquiry but like @electroBeam you kinda are stabbing around in the dark.

Personal development and self-inquiry work beautifully together to give you important insights about yourself, human nature, and reality on many different levels. I've found serious meditation, self-inquiry and enlightenment work really give you a very deep grasping of personal development concepts, philosophy and teachers like Leo and other Masters lessons. So when you say your horrified about your friend admitting hes envious of people there's really no reason to be because you are essentially at the very deepest level one and you have just as much capability to be envious as he is.  Instead of being horrified you could try understanding and acceptance. Leo's video this week talks about a phenomenal principle of putting yourself in the other persons's shoes, contemplating their perspective and searching yourself for the very same emotion the person you're talking to is displaying to have greater understanding.

Haha I hope this wasn't too preachy or anything and that you find it useful. 

Good luck in all your endeavors friend!

Good points overall, but you misinterpreted what I meant by me being horrified. I wasn't horrified with the envy. It wasnt horror in a sense of me morally judging him.

I meant that he was neglecting his emotions and ego through the knowledge of enlightenment. The mindset was "I shouldn't be envious and anxious because it is all one."  - Lack of acceptance.  Of course if you are able to work on your emotions while doing self-enquiry, awesome.
BUT! Being very depressed or anxious or whatever due to low self-esteem and childhood trauma, if you jump into self-enquiry provoking your ego with WHO AM I WHO AM I OMG WHO AM I PANIC PANIC WHO AM I that is not therapeutic, nor does it get you closer to enlightenment. That is doing some serious damage.

The whole point of the topic: Beware of your emotions, they are important, and ideally should be dealt with prior to the Truth.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Martin123

[Dodo]

22 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

Good points overall, but you misinterpreted what I meant by me being horrified. I wasn't horrified with the envy. It wasnt horror in a sense of me morally judging him.

I meant that he was neglecting his emotions and ego through the knowledge of enlightenment. The mindset was "I shouldn't be envious and anxious because it is all one."  - Lack of acceptance.  Of course if you are able to work on your emotions while doing self-enquiry, awesome.
BUT! Being very depressed or anxious or whatever due to low self-esteem and childhood trauma, if you jump into self-enquiry provoking your ego with WHO AM I WHO AM I OMG WHO AM I PANIC PANIC WHO AM I that is not therapeutic, nor does it get you closer to enlightenment. That is doing some serious damage.

The whole point of the topic: Beware of your emotions, they are important, and ideally should be dealt with prior to the Truth.

Emotions should be dealt with the same way as thought. They should not be any more important in my opinion. Sepf enquiry doesn't only need to be a who am I.

Every thought and emotion is helpful for self enquiry, as one can ask, who is the one experiencing this emotion/thought. Which is equivalent to asking who am i.

This is true self enquiry and i only say this to you because you said you havent got much experience with serious self enquiry.

What im trying to get at is, that its not self enquiry s fault and its not a reason to stop it if ego is weak. Problem comes when not doing it the right way (when one does it mechanically and not during the flow of life)

Edited January 9, 2017 by Dodoster

[Martin123]

2 minutes ago, Dodoster said:

Emotions should be dealt with the same way as thought. They should not be any more important in my opinion. Sepf enquiry doesn't only need to be a who am I.

Every thought and emotion is helpful for self enquiry, as one can ask, who is the one experiencing this emotion/thought. Which is equivalent to asking who am i.

This is true self enquiry and i only say this to you because you said you havent got much experience with serious self enquiry.

Another point is that a neurotic ego IS GOING TO MISINTERPRET ENLIGHTENMENT AND WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO PROPER SELF-ENQUIRY.
I realize this sounds a bit odd from someone who hasn't tried self-enquiry methods. But this is the reason I have not. Because I know until my neurotic shadow-self is dealt with, I have no chance against the magnificent true nature of life.

[Guest Annetta]

Something about searching for answers feels emotionally healing in certain aspects and not so much in others.  I'm not seeking enlightenment or spirituality, but it seems to be seeking me. 

[Martin123]

5 minutes ago, Babybat said:

Something about searching for answers feels emotionally healing in certain aspects and not so much in others.  I'm not seeking enlightenment or spirituality, but it seems to be seeking me. 

Good answer, thank you.

[Dodo]

47 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

Another point is that a neurotic ego IS GOING TO MISINTERPRET ENLIGHTENMENT AND WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO PROPER SELF-ENQUIRY.
I realize this sounds a bit odd from someone who hasn't tried self-enquiry methods. But this is the reason I have not. Because I know until my neurotic shadow-self is dealt with, I have no chance against the magnificent true nature of life.

That's what im telling you, its a misconception that you have, you can self enquire from any point of the flow of life. Its self destructive only if you take yourself for illusion. What is true cannot be destroyed, so there is absolutely nothing to worry about. Who you are cannot be destroyed.

It's an amazing process, you dont need to repress anything,  let all of your bodymind and ego come forward and you see its not that big of a deal. You are always beyond it ane allowing it to be.

Let your bodymind be as it is and exactly as it is at the moment, you'll just be observing from the strategic hidden position of the true self that can never be hurt by life's happening.

That way you can allow yourself to experience emotions fully and trully understand that thought and emotion can never hurt you, because they are just happenings inside you.

You realize its just a happening, all of it, and you dont need to label it, then you're free.

But you decide, i might be talking complete crap, it just makes a lot of sense to me personally.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Dodoster

[Martin123]

@Dodoster Youre basically preaching the same thing Im saying.

[Dodo]

12 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

@Dodoster Youre basically preaching the same thing Im saying.

If it's so, i dont see why you are telling yourself that you cant yet do self enquiry.... 

[Martin123]

@Dodoster Dude you're projecting so much on me Ima ask you to start working in the cinema, their projector broke down and you would do just fine.
I don't tell myself that. If a burning desire for Truth comes, then it will come. If it doesn't come, then it won't come.
Now there is a desire for healing. I allow it.
Many people aren't able to allow. I was not when I started my journey. Many people fall into the trap of enlightenment delusion, I try to provide some guidelines that can be helpful for some.
 

[Dodo]

18 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

@Dodoster Dude you're projecting so much on me Ima ask you to start working in the cinema, their projector broke down and you would do just fine.
I don't tell myself that. If a burning desire for Truth comes, then it will come. If it doesn't come, then it won't come.
Now there is a desire for healing. I allow it.
Many people aren't able to allow. I was not when I started my journey. Many people fall into the trap of enlightenment delusion, I try to provide some guidelines that can be helpful for some.
 

Self enquiry also engulfs shadow work. So you can do shadow work obviously and as i said, self enquiry doesnt stop you from doing what you're doing, it only detaches you from illusion. It can only help the healing process.

But sure i will apply for the jobb you recommended if i find any offers in this economy 

[eskwire]

@Martin123 I agree and Leo has said the same, though it's difficult to even begin remembering in which video.

I plan to start pursuing Enlightenment in about 2 years, spending this time on therapeutic work first. 

[Martin123]

@eskwireIMO smart and strategic! :-)