Jim Newman, Tony Parsons, & Similar "Uncompromising" Non-Dual Teachers

[VictorB02]

@Consilience Wow that was beautifully put. Thank you for sharing.

[Nahm]

14 hours ago, Gidiot said:

You could meditate for 40 years and nothing could happen, that seems like a trap to me too.

Nothing happening would be the best case scenario, not a trap. 

There’s no meditator. 

Or time. 

[VictorB02]

Just found this from Daniel Ingrams "Mastering The Core Teachings of The Buddha Revised Edition":

Quote

 

"Thus, all reality testing reveals that these two schools are missing a very fundamental point: while the universal characteristics are always manifesting in all things and at all times, there are those who can perceive this well and those who cannot, and meditative training, conceptual frameworks, techniques, teachers, texts, discussions, and the like all contribute to developing the internal skills and wiring to be able to realize fully what is possible, as thousands of practitioners through the ages have done. I myself have known before and after, meaning that I know what I was capable of perceiving and understanding before I underwent meditative training, and after. No amount of being fed, swallowing, and/or digesting the myth that I am always already as developed as I could be, am already enlightened, am already there, have nothing to do, nothing to develop, nothing to learn, nothing to practice, nothing to master, am always already as clear as I can be, am already perfectly awake, etc., will ever make the difference that practicing for thousands of hours over many years has done.

...I have gained so much that is good and lost so much that is bad by learning to practice well, learning to concentrate, learning the theory, learning insight practices, going through the organic process of the stages over decades, reading the old texts, reading about the lives of great and dedicated practitioners, having dharma conversations with dharma friends, debating points, wrestling with difficult concepts and how to apply them to my actual life—teaching, learning, studying, writing, realizing how things are, and delving deeply into the sensate world—that I am astounded that anyone would want to reduce something so grand, wonderful, deep, rich, amazing, and profound to such a paltry, puerile, and ridiculous concept as the notion that it is already all in place in everyone regardless of what they have done or not done. All those benefits, skills, learnings, abilities, states, stages, experiences, insights, and fundamental perceptual changes simply were not available until I did the work, took the time, participated in the process, and no amount of anyone telling me otherwise would have helped or made it so."

 

Very interesting to contemplate, and this is coming from a Master like Daniel,

Makes me think of Shinzen Young as well, I wonder what he would say

Edited January 28, 2022 by VictorB02

[roopepa]

15 hours ago, Gidiot said:

You could meditate for 40 years and nothing could happen, that seems like a trap to me too.

Meditation isn't about getting somewhere. It's not about god-realization, ego-death or mystical experiences. There is no goal. There is nothing to happen. Meditation is melting away all those concepts. Meditation is seeing "goals" and "results" for what they are, thoughts.

[VeganAwake]

21 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Consilience @LfcCharlie4+1001

 

Hahahaha.

The only thing that wants to keep going is the Ego, it always says Enlightenment is just up ahead around the next corner.... it literally never finds what it's looking for because it's the very experience of separation. 

What ego is searching for is an imaginary concept about Awakening or Enlightenment that simply never occurs... it's a fabrication of the ego, a dream story of what the ego believes Enlightenment must be like. 

The paradox is that meditation can sometimes allow a catching on to these endless dream stories the ego fabricates to keep the search going. BTW it doesn't seem to be working there.

Enlightenment has nothing to do with being able to tell a nice long spiritual sounding story to make the ego feel like it has really been getting somewhere & making progress on the so-called spiritual path.

Its the recognition that this individual or whatever identifying agent 'you' consider yourself to be, IS AN ILLUSION of self.

Honestly by now you would think you guys would have accidentally caught on to what is being pointed to.

It really illuminates how tricky identification with the ego/sense of self can be.

❤ 

 

 

 

 

[Gidiot]

Meditation might happen here, but the message resonates still and I don’t know why but it’s one of the best messages I’ve ever heard.

@Consilience having said the above^ I still used to be quite the meditator and would often drive 30mins to an hour to meet with a meditation group, there was time the message of non duality resonated with me and now I’m going back to my roots of meditation again to see what happens if anything, I think the uncompromising message is a phase we all gotta go through or realize. Just wanted to say I respect your path and I hope in the dream or story or whatever that it’s a pleasant one

Edited January 28, 2022 by Gidiot

[Inliytened1]

@VeganAwake you have more to go..we all do.. but I love you

 

[gettoefl]

"it's life jim but not as we know it"

[Inliytened1]

38 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

"it's life jim but not as we know it"

Infinity.   But he has yet to realize that he is Infinity itself because it must be.

[Consilience]

3 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Hahahaha.

The only thing that wants to keep going is the Ego, it always says Enlightenment is just up ahead around the next corner.... it literally never finds what it's looking for because it's the very experience of separation. 

What ego is searching for is an imaginary concept about Awakening or Enlightenment that simply never occurs... it's a fabrication of the ego, a dream story of what the ego believes Enlightenment must be like. 

The paradox is that meditation can sometimes allow a catching on to these endless dream stories the ego fabricates to keep the search going. BTW it doesn't seem to be working there.

Enlightenment has nothing to do with being able to tell a nice long spiritual sounding story to make the ego feel like it has really been getting somewhere & making progress on the so-called spiritual path.

Its the recognition that this individual or whatever identifying agent 'you' consider yourself to be, IS AN ILLUSION of self.

Honestly by now you would think you guys would have accidentally caught on to what is being pointed to.

It really illuminates how tricky identification with the ego/sense of self can be.

❤ 

 

 

 

 

This entire reply really illuminates how tricky identification with ego/sense of self can be. There’s an entire self fabricated out of this neo advaita like philosophy you preach on the forum. 
 

In actuality, the ego doesn’t want to meditate, or find truth. It thinks it does, until truth starts “finding” the ego, at which point the path is like a gravity well pulling in on itself without control or without the ability for this process to stop. At that point, the work begins to grow like an acorn growing into a tree, completely naturally. There is no choice but to continue. 
 

In actuality, the ego loves avoiding responsibility and work. It loves telling stories about how awake it is, about how it’s liberated and sees selflessness. This is the common mark of spiritual ego, a fragile state and trap indeed. Pray life never tests your “realization.” In actuality, this is a conceptual movement of mind from a mind too untrained to notice, a mind too caught in conceptual falsehood to see the lack of depth to its realization. Perhaps not the case for *you* specifically, but a common trap from those caught in the sales pitch of Neo Advaita. 
 

The real irony from this whole Neo Advaita movement is there is something to find, something so profound and subtle it could never be communicated. There is something available that can be discovered. For those that have discovered it, it is self-evident, selfless, and seen as that which is truly sacred about life. 

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

Infinity.   But he has yet to realize that he is Infinity itself because it must be.

How are you making that assessment from the above passage? 

[Consilience]

@VictorB02 Thank you brother ??
 

2 hours ago, Gidiot said:

Meditation might happen here, but the message resonates still and I don’t know why but it’s one of the best messages I’ve ever heard.

@Consilience having said the above^ I still used to be quite the meditator and would often drive 30mins to an hour to meet with a meditation group, there was time the message of non duality resonated with me and now I’m going back to my roots of meditation again to see what happens if anything, I think the uncompromising message is a phase we all gotta go through or realize. Just wanted to say I respect your path and I hope in the dream or story or whatever that it’s a pleasant one

Thank you for the kind words. I respect your path as well and hope you find true happiness. If this message feels in alignment, truly, well yeah you can’t not follow your heart.

I speak as someone who feels somewhat intermediate on the path, advanced enough to see the mind breaking possibility of what a lifetime of practice results in. I also seem to have a strange capacity to empathize with the massive amount of suffering all beings experience, seeing very clearly our capacity to suffer. I also see how suffering is a mis-perception though. Ive broken through enough times with massive amounts of physical and emotional pain during practice to see how these are what occur when one is not perceiving reality objectively or in alignment with truth. 
 

The uncompromising message may sound nice, but when the spiritual rubber meets the road, if reality still has the capacity to steam roll us in an ocean of suffering, we are not enlightened. End of story. 
 

Seeing and perhaps even catching the ox, ie seeing the illusory nature of self, is just the starting point and is at best what this uncompromising message provides, maybe. At worst, it facilitates a deeply twisted spiritual bypassing process wherein a sense of self is created out of the *belief* in a lack of self or “this is it” mentality, rather than the true, authentic, embodied clear seeing.
 

There is so much further to go. 

[Inliytened1]

14 minutes ago, Consilience said:

How are you making that assessment from the above passage? 

He still speaks of Truth as if it is something separate from himself.

[VictorB02]

@Consilience anytime man. I love reading your replies. Not to boost your *spiritual ego* but I can feel the sincerity in them and they resonate. 

All in all,  maybe there is something in the uncompromising message, but like you @Consilience, my intuition tells me that it would just be a trap to say "im done" when I know deep in my heart im not.

Thanks everyone else for your discussion and replies. It's really helped me sort this out.

[VeganAwake]

24 minutes ago, Consilience said:

This entire reply really illuminates how tricky identification with ego/sense of self can be. There’s an entire self fabricated out of this neo advaita like philosophy you preach on the forum. 
 

In actuality, the ego doesn’t want to meditate, or find truth. It thinks it does, until truth starts “finding” the ego, at which point the path is like a gravity well pulling in on itself without control or without the ability for this process to stop. At that point, the work begins to grow like an acorn growing into a tree, completely naturally. There is no choice but to continue. 
 

In actuality, the ego loves avoiding responsibility and work. It loves telling stories about how awake it is, about how it’s liberated and sees selflessness. This is the common mark of spiritual ego, a fragile state and trap indeed. Pray life never tests your “realization.” In actuality, this is a conceptual movement of mind from a mind too untrained to notice, a mind too caught in conceptual falsehood to see the lack of depth to its realization. Perhaps not the case for *you* specifically, but a common trap from those caught in the sales pitch of Neo Advaita. 
 

The real irony from this whole Neo Advaita movement is there is something to find, something so profound and subtle it could never be communicated. There is something available that can be discovered. For those that have discovered it, it is self-evident, selfless, and seen as that which is truly sacred about life. 

It's so already the case that it seems hidden because enlightenment is the recognition that the very individual that thinks it needs to find something special, isn't real in any way at all.

Sounds easy enough but it's rare and never what the ego/me thinks it will be like. 

Ordinary and extraordinary simultaneously seem to describe it well!

❤ 

[Inliytened1]

16 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

It's so already the case that it seems hidden because enlightenment is the recognition that the very individual that thinks it needs to find something special, isn't real in any way at all.

Sounds easy enough but it's rare and never what the ego/me thinks it will be like. 

Ordinary and extraordinary simultaneously seem to describe it well!

❤ 

Your recognition is hiding you from actual awakening from the dream.  Your ego has taken the position that there is no ego and you firmly believe that.   But in doing that your ego has secretly made itself free from threats.  A brilliant maneuver.  You have built a wall  up around yourself and you do it so well you don't even realize it's a wall.

[VeganAwake]

49 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Your recognition is hiding you from actual awakening from the dream. 

There's no "your recognition" and there isn't a real dream or a someone that awakens.

It's not a happening in that sense... its the end of identification as an illusory individual within the body that believes it can one day become awakened... and always of course with enough spiritual practice LOL.

Your ego has taken the position that there is no ego and you firmly believe that. 

There isn't a you and then a separate thing called an ego... the ego is the very illusion of self that believes it can get rid of the ego. 

But in doing that your ego has secretly made itself free from threats.  A brilliant maneuver.  You have built a wall  up around yourself and you do it so well you don't even realize it's a wall.

The ego or sense of self lives in a world of meaning, purpose and value which is exactly why the ego there thinks its important to drop the egoic identification. 

It's not important at all because that would just be another illusory egoic concept.

It doesn't matter in any way at all whether enlightenment occurs or not because it's literally the end of the individual that believes enlightenment is a real happening for a real individual.... (that's the cosmic joke)

And in that sense there's no such thing as spiritual bypassing because there isn't a real correct or incorrect path for a real individual in the first place.

There are no real walls or obstacles for illusions.

❤ 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by VeganAwake

[Nahm]

6 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

that's the cosmic joke

? 

[axiom]

Seems like most of you are in agreement with each other, but using language in subtly different ways. Anyway...

I see some suggestions that people are somehow "doing it wrong". By the same logic, a planet-killing comet really ought to reconsider its Earth-bound trajectory.

Neither the comet nor the person has agency.

It strikes me that much of the reticence around the uncompromising messages of Jim Newman and Tony Parsons is to do with ego, i.e. attachment to a spiritual identity and in particular the misapprehension that so many years of seeking and practicing must count for something.

Edited January 28, 2022 by axiom

[Consilience]

52 minutes ago, axiom said:

It strikes me that much of the reticence around the uncompromising messages of Jim Newman and Tony Parsons is to do with ego, i.e. attachment to a spiritual identity and in particular the misapprehension that so many years of seeking and practicing must count for something.

I would say this is possible, and equally and perhaps more possible for Jim Newman and Tony Parsons followers. How enticing would it be to jump to the end of the path? To feel accomplished, like I finally got it! Rather than the honest and at times painful admittance that I don’t know. The ego hates not knowing. It seeks answers, security, assurance, invulnerability, all of which Neo Advaita provide to its followers. 
 

In my own experience, it’s not that “so many years of seeking and practice must count for something.” It’s more like I am continually and utterly humbled by the depth of this path, work, what is possible, and simultaneously how much “Ive done” and how much further there is to go.
 

It would be like a casual gym goer telling a professional bodybuilder yeah lifting weights may help some with growing muscle, but it’s all about nutrition anyways. How does the bodybuilder respond?