Good Convo Between Vaush and JP's Daughter

[Carl-Richard]

27 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Sure, but he should be wise enough to realize that the things he's talking about require internal tranformations. You can't just drop this into someone's lap who doesn't have the ego development to grok it, the same way that you can't teach a six year old about postmodern theory.

As an overarching point, I agree. It's a bit idealistic. However, at least in the discussion with Vaush, it's more complicated. The reason they picked the topic of pedophilia was really only because he and Destiny had just discussed the other topics they had to choose from a bit earlier. He also knew that Vaush had already 1. expressed well thought-out opinions on pedophilia, and 2. had made statements which he actually disagreed with (statements in favor of "ethical child porn"), so he expected to enter the conversation as the guy with the anti-pedophilia stance, but instead Vaush did a 180 and gave a vague PR statement to save his ass ("well that was only a spicy way to critique socially acceptable types of unethical commodity consumption..."). Then the whole thing ended with Vaush misinterpreting a joke and kicking him off etc. It was all just a trainwreck really.

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, Roy said:

I'm actually going on his call-in show tonight so I'll feel first hand what I'm talking about haha.

Hahahaha I'll be watching :)))

[Roy]

I'm honest enough to have a conversation with him, but I'm not honest enough to say which caller I'll end up being.

I'll leave that to guess 

[DocWatts]

11 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

As an overarching point, I agree. However, at least in the discussion with Vaush, it's more complicated. The reason they picked the topic of pedophilia was really only because he and Destiny had just discussed the other topics they had to choose from a bit earlier. 

Oh okay, I was missing some of that context, as I haven't seen the Destiny discussion that you're referring to.

I tend never to know in advance whether Vaush's discussions will actually be productive or turn in to a trainwreck, where I end up questioning why I just listened to two people talking past each other for an hour...

Something like Theories of Everything or HealthyGamerGG is a million times better in that regard, which considering that both of thier hosts embody Tier2 values is hardly surprising...

Edited January 23, 2022 by DocWatts

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

8 hours ago, Scholar said:

What did you enjoy about this? I still am surprised that you are so attracted to Hasan and Vaush they are insufferable to me.

   It's probably his bias that he's able to tolerate and be attracted to their views.

[DocWatts]

On 1/23/2022 at 9:57 AM, Carl-Richard said:

It's kinda spread out, but this is short and sweet:

3:09 - 3:24

He tends to only mention his past in passing, so you have to watch some of his stuff to get the whole picture. Nevertheless, you can quickly tell that he has a good understanding of Green.

I like this one. It displays some of his Green literacy (and it's funny ):

 

Thanks for posting this by the way, after watching it I feel like I understand Mr. Girl's perspective better, even if I'm not any more endeared to him now than I was during that Vaush stream.

I think the problem with using an intentionally inflammatory rhetorical style is that it entails giving a huge benefit of the doubt that the person is actually operating in Good Faith and has a salient point to make (rather than being a toxic asshole).

Maybe I just find it an extremely off-putting way of trying to communicate, even if that doesn't necessarily invalidate the larger points he brings up. And more of a meta-point, but I'm not sure that a message can or even should be separated from the style and tone of its delivery.

Edited January 25, 2022 by DocWatts

[Preety_India]

She is acting dull, elitist, ignorant, dispassionate, and a plain conservative. Nothing unexpected. Poor merit. Would have been nothing without Dad's Label. 

Telling people to work hard. Excuse me? 

Look at who is dictating Critical Race Theory. The irony. 

She is the definition of "if you can't eat bread, eat cake." 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Preety_India

[Carl-Richard]

38 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Thanks for posting this by the way, after watching it I feel like I understand Mr. Girl's perspective better, even if I'm not any more endeared to him now than I was during that Vaush stream.

I think the problem with using an intentionally inflammatory rhetorical style is that it entails giving a huge benefit of the doubt that the person is actually operating in Good Faith and has a salient point to make (rather than being a toxic asshole).

Maybe I just find it an extremely off-putting way of trying to communicate, even if that doesn't necessarily invalidate the larger points he brings up. And more of a meta-point, but I'm not sure that a message can or even should be separated from the style and tone of its delivery.

Yeah I'm pretty divided on it. I like the authenticity as a general trait, but he often expects way too much from the other person. Though I think he has realized that he needs to be more smart about it in the future.

[Yog]

Its a brave thing she did, we need more people doing this.

Especially if you take in consideration that its extremely difficult to talk with Vaush, the usual case is that he talks to people and rarely with people.

Anyway he did a good job in laying out the broad picture of CRT, which is something conservatives need to look more into. It could have ended up as a disaster very easily, but it didn't, so that's also a good plus.

As much as I disliked the interview format she did for the video, I see it as necessary and a good start.

Btw here is the full interview.
 

 

[DocWatts]

14 hours ago, Yog said:

Its a brave thing she did, we need more people doing this.

Especially if you take in consideration that its extremely difficult to talk with Vaush, the usual case is that he talks to people and rarely with people.

Anyway he did a good job in laying out the broad picture of CRT, which is something conservatives need to look more into. It could have ended up as a disaster very easily, but it didn't, so that's also a good plus.

As much as I disliked the interview format she did for the video, I see it as necessary and a good start.

Btw here is the full interview.
 

 

I'll give her major credit for being open and upfront about her perspective (as a conservative), and for at least trying to engage with other perspectives in Good Faith.  By those metrics she's leagues ahead of her father.

[Yog]

18 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

I'll give her major credit for being open and upfront about her perspective (as a conservative), and for at least trying to engage with other perspectives in Good Faith.  By those metrics she's leagues ahead of her father.

Yeah, I guess one factor might be personality, another might be that she is less familiar with the whole territory, so she is more careful.

JP can also be good in conversations, but sadly he can get triggered and go on some rand very easily. So it takes a good faith host for him to turn out fine, if not it can turn into a wreck.

I wonder how much of that is caused by his physical pain problems, he can appear grinded and irritated to death even before the interview has started at times.

[DocWatts]

43 minutes ago, Yog said:

Yeah, I guess one factor might be personality, another might be that she is less familiar with the whole territory, so she is more careful.

JP can also be good in conversations, but sadly he can get triggered and go on some rand very easily. So it takes a good faith host for him to turn out fine, if not it can turn into a wreck.

I wonder how much of that is caused by his physical pain problems, he can appear grinded and irritated to death even before the interview has started at times.

Fair enough, and I can empathize with someone being in an irritable mood from being in physical pain.

From what I've watched of him, even in discussions where he's not being triggered, there seems to be a somewhat surprising lack of self awareness for someone whose chosen field is psychology, and who talks as much as he does about cross paradigmatic study and analysis.

Not that I'm placing these two figures in remotely the same league, but compare JP to someone like Ken Wilber who has enough self awareness to recognize that he's developed a shadow around Green from his time in academia, and admits as much.

I don't think most reasonable people would have a problem with JP if he were upfront about his biases, and if he wasn't treated as an authority by millions of people on issues where he's very clearly uninformed and/or highly biased.

[Danioover9000]

@Yog

2 hours ago, Yog said:

Yeah, I guess one factor might be personality, another might be that she is less familiar with the whole territory, so she is more careful.

JP can also be good in conversations, but sadly he can get triggered and go on some rand very easily. So it takes a good faith host for him to turn out fine, if not it can turn into a wreck.

I wonder how much of that is caused by his physical pain problems, he can appear grinded and irritated to death even before the interview has started at times.

   I'm willing to bet that it's the physical pain, and the meds he was taking. Treatment of autoimmune disorders are tricky as a whole.

[Roy]

Had my talk with MrGirl on last nights show. Was nervous at the start, but he seemed to be a good listener. I'm glad I didn't read chat during it, people are kinda toxic lol.

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Roy said:

Had my talk with MrGirl on last nights show. Was nervous at the start, but he seemed to be a good listener. I'm glad I didn't read chat during it, people are kinda toxic lol.

Nice. Imma find the VOD  

I like the Tool quote btw   

[Yog]

Sorry for the late reply guys, need to set up my notifications properly lol. I also tend to vanish from here quite often.

@Danioover9000

I think there is a lot of that going on, he even said it in few podcasts. There is also type, temperament, generation, the way he expresses his passions and probably more. The whole mess happens when people perceive this mix and make snap judgements.
 

On 1/27/2022 at 4:23 PM, DocWatts said:

I don't think most reasonable people would have a problem with JP if he were upfront about his biases, and if he wasn't treated as an authority by millions of people on issues where he's very clearly uninformed and/or highly biased.

I think the same way, even Ken Wilber mentioned this in his analysts of him.

Anyway aside from the energy some people perceive/project on/from him, he tends to talk in these baked and refined snippets (load file: clean your room ), which in a weird way is his point, to say things so simple that both a juvenile kid, your grandma and a developed adult can understand, or at least its his aim. Anyway it would surely be better to always elaborate more, provide more context and examples, which is something he does not do, or rarely does it. He just blasts phrases. Another thing is that such simple phrases are very open to projection. The simpler, the more open.

So a lot of miscommunication is happening because of that. People tend to easily assume some hard-bias, but if they were to talk with him in a nuanced way he would probably agree with most of the contra points, or at least recognize them.

The problem is that most people think that what he is saying is his opinion and that he is standing behind it, at the same time that he is against what is "the opposite" in that case. When in many cases he states things that he does not like, nor are his opinions, but he finds them to be important in some manner, so he wants to bring them forward. The popular appearance is that he is hard-biased and both balls in with everything he utters. I don't find this to be true.

He is biased ofc, not denying, nor have something against that, but as I see it, its way softer and more nuanced than what people usually assume. Its his language, energy + all the pot stirring of the media/internet that makes it a mess. That was my point.

[SgtPepper]

I also enjoyed the interview! Thanks for sharing Leo!