Good Convo Between Vaush and JP's Daughter

[Leo Gura]

Enjoyed this conversation more than I expected:

 

[Carl-Richard]

She is doing a version of the Mr.Girl thing (creating dialogue between opposing views). Not saying they're equal, but it shows how metamodernism is in many ways a re-integration of modernism. Like Jamie Wheal says, the conditions for Game B were actually set with the founding fathers. They were just never properly implemented.

"We're are not here to honor the dead, we're here to re-commit to the promise."

 

[Scholar]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Enjoyed this conversation more than I expected:

 

What did you enjoy about this? I still am surprised that you are so attracted to Hasan and Vaush they are insufferable to me.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Scholar

[DocWatts]

I really wish there was a thumbnail or something in the corner of Vaush's videos indicating whether it's going to be a debate-lord video or whether it's going to be an actual conversation.

I found the Mr. Girl discussion to of be something of a trainwreck. Mr Girl may embody Tier 2 thinking but his way of expressing that was counter-productive and kind of cringy ('welcome to Yellow where we empathize with pedophiles'... Really, that's the way you want to introduce Yellow to a Green audience? *facepalm*)

If JP's daughter (who I'll admit to being unfamiliar with) is a Metamodernist, I hope they can have something approaching a productive conversation...

Edited January 23, 2022 by DocWatts

[Carl-Richard]

20 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

If JP's daughter (who I'll admit to being unfamiliar with) is a Metamodernist, I hope they can have something approaching a productive conversation...

I meant that she is a modernist (based on the fact that she identifies as a conservative). Mr.Girl is a metamodernist. The difference is that he has a much more insider's understanding of Green (he has been through it), which becomes very clear when you listen to his story. My point is that many modernist ideals coincide with metamodernism, something which gets lost in postmodernism.

[DocWatts]

40 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I meant that she is a modernist (she identifies as a conservative). Mr.Girl is metamodernist. The difference is that he has been through Green, which becomes very clear when you listen to his story.

Fair enough. For what it's worth my introduction to Mr. Girl was through that Vaush conversation and I haven't explored his other work very much, so I'll admit that my (somewhat unfavorable) impression of him may be unfair.

(Is there any Mr. Girl content in particular where he talks about going through Green? I'd be interested in listening to that if it's accessible, because I suspect it's something I will relate to, and it would be help me understand him better)

As an aside, I also remember having a somewhat unfavorable view of Leo's content 6 or 7 years ago when my metaphysical horse was hitched to the materialist paradigm, so I'm fairly open to having my views on a person or idea evolve as I explore more aspects of thier work.

Edited January 23, 2022 by DocWatts

[DocWatts]

Rather enjoying the discussion between Vaush and Mikhaila so far, as it's proving to be a productive cross-paradigmatic discussion.

Would much rather see more of this content from Vaush than the often inflammatory debates that he's become probably more well known for...

Edited January 23, 2022 by DocWatts

[Windappreciator]

a libertarian socialist huh

[DocWatts]

Just now, Windappreciator said:

a libertarian socialist huh

Yup that's a thing. Not like Libertarian values necessarily have to right wing economic theory.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, DocWatts said:

Fair enough. For what it's worth my introduction to Mr. Girl was through that Vaush conversation and I haven't explored his other work very much, so I'll admit that my (somewhat unfavorable) impression of him may be unfair.

Is there any Mr. Girl content in particular where he talks about going through Green? I'd be interested in listening to that if it's accessible 

It's kinda spread out, but this is short and sweet:

3:09 - 3:24

He tends to only mention his past in passing, so you have to watch some of his stuff to get the whole picture. Nevertheless, you can quickly tell that he has a good understanding of Green.

 

I like this one. It displays some of his Green literacy (and it's funny ):

 

[Windappreciator]

10 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Yup that's a thing. Not like Libertarian values necessarily have to right wing economic theory.

honestly, i don't know what that even means

[DocWatts]

11 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

honestly, i don't know what that even means

If you think about what the core value of Libertarianism is, it's the maximization of individual liberty, and the inalienable rights of the individual.

Both the Left and the Right have different ideas about how this can be accomplished, and have different economic theories that each claims to pursue this goal.

The reason why this may be confusing is that in America at least, the whole of Libertarianism has come to be conflated with economically Right Wing libertarianism. Which is why libertarian socialist sounds like a contradiction in terms, when it reality it only appears that way to someone who has a quite narrow definition of Libertarianism.

A loose analogy would be how something like Liberalism has its roots in the European Enlightenment, and that most most liberals and conservatives subscribe to its values insofar as they believe in democracy.

Edited January 23, 2022 by DocWatts

[Roy]

1 hour ago, DocWatts said:

Mr Girl may embody Tier 2 thinking but his way of expressing that was counter-productive and kind of cringy ('welcome to Yellow where we empathize with pedophiles'... Really, that's the way you want to introduce Yellow to a Green audience? *facepalm*)

From what I've gathered MrGirl seems to amuse himself by trolling and playing up a bit of a role, exposing that people on the internet take themselves way too seriously. He's so committed he's even playing it to the point where most people really think he is a Pedo and he barely even denies it, which is honestly probably the worst label possible. You'd get less flak being an Islamic Terrorist online because at least there are some lunatic relative progressives that would defend you (assuming you were brown).

It's probably not the most effective way to introduce Yellow but, at least it's working somewhat? We live in the age of shock and stupidity and if that's what it takes to get more Yellow out there so be it I guess. You have to realize most people aren't even close to being ready for Yellow, it's such a small percentage of the population. Only a small portion of people are actually searching for it. A guy like Peter Ralston has been around forever and nobody has really ever heard of them.

Even Leo's sub count while still large has kind of stalled out for a few years because of his advancement in level of content. His views have tanked compared to his old stuff simply because the majority of people aren't ready for it.

Going from Tier 1 to Tier 2 it's difficult to appreciate how incredible a leap that is.

Getting to Green is basically like surfacing in the water after drowning in the shit of Red/Blue/Orange. Then to get to Yellow you have to swim all the way to dry land that you probably can't even spot yet.

Most people are exhausted when they surface the water at Green, and when you tell them they need to get to land they'll tell you to piss off.

 

[Carl-Richard]

12 minutes ago, Roy said:

From what I've gathered MrGirl seems to amuse himself by trolling and playing up a bit of a role, exposing that people on the internet take themselves way too seriously. He's so committed he's even playing it to the point where most people really think he is a Pedo and he barely even denies it, which is honestly probably the worst label possible.

I've watched quite a bit of Mr.Girl by now, and there is no way he is intentionally trolling, at least not in the 1-to-1 conversations. He might come off that way, but it's actually just radical honesty. People are simply not used to somebody who doesn't excessively virtue signal when making ambiguous statements in ethically edgy conversations. He doesn't only talk about pedophilia either.

[DocWatts]

@Roy I'm not so sure that adversarial tactics of trolling are an effective way to have cross-paradigmatic discussions.

The irony being that I'm finding the discussion between Vaush and Mikhaila a much better embodiment of cross-paradigmatic discussion than Vaush and Mr. Girl, who almost certainly understands Green better than Mikhaila.

From the way you describe it, it sounds like a poor man's version of the 'sincere irony' of Metamodernism.

If the goal isn't to have a productive cross-paradigmatic discussion, I have to wonder what was even the point of trying to have a discussion with Vaush and his Green audience ..

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by DocWatts

[Windappreciator]

19 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

If you think about what the core value of Libertarianism is, it's the maximization of individual liberty, and the inalienable rights of the individual.

Both the Left and the Right have different ideas about how this can be accomplished, and have different economic theories that each claims to pursue this goal.

The reason why this may be confusing is that in America at least, the whole of Libertarianism has come to be conflated with economically Right Wing libertarianism. Which is why libertarian socialist sounds like a contradiction in terms, when it reality it only appears that way to someone who has a quite narrow definition of Libertarianism.

A loose analogy would be how something like Liberalism has its roots in the European Enlightenment, and that most most liberals and conservatives subscribe to its values insofar as they believe in democracy.

i suppose that is a fair description, thanks.

honestly it doesn't really matter all these names for identifications, to me, at least.

 

[DocWatts]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I've watched quite a bit of Mr.Girl by now, and I don't think he is intentionally trolling, at least not in the 1-to-1 conversations. It's actually just radical honesty. People are simply not used to somebody who doesn't excessively virtue signal when making ambiguous statements in ethically edgy conversations. He doesn't only talk about pedophilia either.

Sure, but he should be wise enough to realize that the things he's talking about require internal transformation.

You can't just drop this into someone's lap who doesn't have the development to grok it, the same way that you can't teach a six year old about postmodern theory.

That would be like trying to introduce someone to something like Buddhism by just dropping it's most advanced teachings in to thier lap without any context or groundwork, rather than by teaching that person the basics of things like meditation as a starting point...

Edited January 23, 2022 by DocWatts

[Roy]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

It's actually just radical honesty.

Exactly. It pierces right through so many layers that people are used to playing in-between, that just the act of being purely honest is kind of like trolling. Not the malicious type where you're trying to cause grievance. Like I said I think it's a bit for his own amusement. He is obviously keenly aware how he's more authentic than most people, and realizes he's got to play a bit of their game to connect.

I'm actually going on his call-in show tonight so I'll feel first hand what I'm talking about haha.

[Opo]

1 minute ago, Roy said:

I'm actually going on his call-in show tonight so I'll feel first hand what I'm talking about haha.

Nice! 

Tell him that you can fix him. 

[DocWatts]

5 minutes ago, Roy said:

I'm actually going on his call-in show tonight so I'll feel first hand what I'm talking about haha.

You should pasted a link to that on the forum after it gets posted on his channel, I'll definitely want to listen to that.

Edited January 23, 2022 by DocWatts