Posted January 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said: No. I think it's a Spira made out of mind that buys things. Spira is a formed being (he is not formless), but form is not matter. Then what is matter? Is there any difference between a 'material' Spria and a 'mind' Spira? "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 @Carl-Richard it's like you are telling me that my chair is 'just mind stuff'.. it's not really 'matter'.. but also, my chair is made of wood. "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said: Then what is matter? Is there any difference between a 'material' Spria and a 'mind' Spira? Matter is something that is not mind. That's the entire materialist conundrum. They literally invented the mind-body problem simply by defining matter. It's actually ridiculous 2 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said: @Carl-Richard it's like you are telling me that my chair is 'just mind stuff'.. it's not really 'matter'.. but also, my chair is made of wood. In your own words: can you not dream of a wooden chair? Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said: Matter is something that is not mind. That's the entire materialist conundrum. They literally invented the mind-body problem simply by defining matter. It's actually ridiculous In your own words: can you not dream of a wooden chair? I can dream of all of this.. but it would be ridiculous to know that this was a dream, and still try to convince the characters in this dream that it's a dream... just as ridiculous as convincing them it's not. Edited January 25, 2022 by Mason Riggle "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said: In your own words: can you not dream of a wooden chair? the trick is not not dreaming of the chair, but dreaming of that which negates the chairs completely Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Mason Riggle said: I can dream of all of this.. but it would be ridiculous to know that this was a dream, and still try to convince the characters in this dream that it's a dream. It's not ridiculous when most people spend all their waking (sleeping) life outright denying it. The dream of life is not trivial like the dream of night. Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said: It's not ridiculous when most people spend all their waking (sleeping) life outright denying it. The dream of life is not trivial like the dream of night. it's not trivial.. as in.. it 'matters'. "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 Just now, Mason Riggle said: it's not trivial.. as in.. it 'matters'. You just can't help yourself, can you? Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 "But even if one thinks that the human mind is entirely the product of physics, the reality of consciousness becomes no less wondrous, and the difference between happiness and suffering no less important. Nor does such a view suggest that we will ever find the emergence of mind from matter fully intelligible; consciousness may always seem like a miracle. In philosophical circles, this is known as “the hard problem of consciousness”—some of us agree that this problem exists, some of us don’t. Should consciousness prove conceptually irreducible, remaining the mysterious ground for all we can conceivably experience or value, the rest of the scientific worldview would remain perfectly intact." - Sam Harris "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Mason Riggle said: "But even if one thinks that the human mind is entirely the product of physics, the reality of consciousness becomes no less wondrous, and the difference between happiness and suffering no less important. Nor does such a view suggest that we will ever find the emergence of mind from matter fully intelligible; consciousness may always seem like a miracle. In philosophical circles, this is known as “the hard problem of consciousness”—some of us agree that this problem exists, some of us don’t. Should consciousness prove conceptually irreducible, remaining the mysterious ground for all we can conceivably experience or value, the rest of the scientific worldview would remain perfectly intact." - Sam Harris I've read that quote before. He is not ignorant of the possibilities provided by different views, but when he is pressed, he capitulates to materialism. Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said: I've read that quote before. He is not ignorant of the possibilities provided by different views, but when he is pressed, he capitulates to materialism. When you say 'he capitulates to materialism'.. do you think the 'he' who capitulates is material, or no? Is there a physical Sam Harris with a brain that capitulates to materialism? "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 Just now, Mason Riggle said: When you say 'he capitulates to materialism'.. do you think the 'he' who capitulates is material, or no? Is there a physical Sam Harris with a brain that capitulates to materialism? We already went over this. 4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said: No. I think it's a Spira made out of mind that buys things. Spira is a formed being (he is not formless), but form is not matter. Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 (edited) @Carl-Richard Can you tell me the difference between 'mind stuff' and 'material stuff'? Edited January 25, 2022 by Mason Riggle "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 13 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said: Can you tell me the difference between 'mind stuff' and 'material stuff'? We already went over this as well. The materialist says "material stuff is not mind stuff" and vice versa. It's true that so-called material stuff and mind stuff are used to refer to different types of phenomenological experiences (e.g. seeing a table vs. thinking about a table; the former being a so-called experience of matter, the latter an experience of mind), but from an idealist's perspective, these experiences are made out of the same fundamental substance, namely experience itself, or mind, qualia, consciousness etc. Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 @Carl-Richard you are the one who said form is not matter. Are you a materialist? 13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said: The materialist says "material stuff is not mind stuff" and vice versa. "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 "I believe that this notion of emergence is incomprehensible—rather like a naive conception of the big bang. " - Sam Harris "I take seriously the idea that we’re in a simulation. I have no idea whether or not it’s true, but if it is, if we are in a simulation, it’s not that nothing is real, not that there are no tables and chairs and trees. Rather, it’s that they exist in a different form from what we first thought. There’s a level of computation underneath what we take to be physical reality.”- Sam Harris "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 38 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said: @Carl-Richard you are the one who said form is not matter. Are you a materialist? You were confusing the concept of form and matter, and I pointed out the distinction. I didn't mean to say that matter exists. Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 @Carl-Richard do you think matter 'exists' as 'mind stuff'? Does my computer exist, or does it just seem to exist? What's the difference? Do you think Sam Harris exists? It's just funny to me, to imagine a Sam Harris that exists, apparently with a brain that has thoughts about materialism, but his existence is not 'material'.. that Sam only exists as form? Which is different from actually existing how?? I don't get it. "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 '“Consciousness is the prior condition of every experience; the self or ego is an illusory appearance within it; look closely for what you are calling “I,” and the feeling of being a separate self will disappear; what remains, as a matter of experience, is a field of consciousness—free, undivided, and intrinsically uncontaminated by its ever-changing contents.” - Sam Harris "I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Mason Riggle said: @Carl-Richard do you think matter 'exists' as 'mind stuff'? Does my computer exist, or does it just seem to exist? What's the difference? Do you think Sam Harris exists? It's just funny to me, to imagine a Sam Harris that exists, apparently with a brain that has thoughts about materialism, but his existence is not 'material'.. that Sam only exists as form? Which is different from actually existing how?? I don't get it. Again, I'm using the ontological definition of matter: "The word matter is derived from the Latin word materia, meaning "wood", or “timber”, in the sense "material", as distinct from "mind" or "form".[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_matter The idealist position is that once you have experience (mind/form), you don't need to invent a new substance called matter for things to exist, because experience is existence. I experience Sam - he exists. This is getting circular. Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
